With gentleness and humility, as a God fearing woman with no children, may I offer a comment?
(I greatly appreciate your thoughts, and you hit the nail right on the head with the church being more of a business model than a family, wow! Me and a friend used to laugh over how the congregation seemed like a corporation and the preacher its president! Lol)
Anyhow, I do not disagree with you that marriage and children are a beautiful thing and the foundation of God's plan for how mankind should continue.
I readily accept that some people will think that I am not being a good Christian woman because I have never been married and don't have a husband. And therefore no children. Relationships have always been a struggle for me and I've never met anyone that I thought would be a good husband for me.
I've also never had the desire to be a mother. Most women do, but some women don't. I realize that people will also judge me for that because they believe that all women should be mothers.
So what do I do? I live a quiet and simple life, devoted to the Lord. Serving him how I can, in spite of my fibromyalgia and chronic fatigue. I encourage my nephew and nieces in the Lord as much as I can . I look out for others who also might be considered outcasts by the church, especially other women who are single or divorced or come to assembly by themselves, who know they don't fit in and won't be readily welcomed because they don't fit the "ideal picture" of a woman, i.e. they don't have a husband and children under the age of 18.
Are these women precious to the Lord? I believe they are. Am I still precious to the Lord? I believe I am.
I think that Paul defends the unmarried in 1st Corinthians 7. I also believe that Jesus understood people situations that not everyone would be able to have children, as he defends eunuchs and the childless In Matthew 19:12
So I understand your viewpoint on marriage and children, I do, but please also understand that every person has their own complications and challenges and unique gifts in life and having a spouse and children is not the only way to be a servant. If it was, then I would truly be an outcast in the family of God. But I know that Jesus loves me and cares about me, I matter. no matter what my marital status is or reproductive status is.
All i humbly ask is for your mercy, on me and all those like me, trying to serve the Lord even though we don't fit the ideal standard.
May God bless you and have a wonderful day! Keep up the good writing, I very much enjoy your thoughts!
Absolutely - there will always be exceptions, and my heart goes out to each of you. It seems like you're contributing to the church in your own way in your situation, and that's all you can do. My own sister is one who would love to be married but has yet to find a mate, so I understand and empathize with the predicament.
I think we have to be able to acknowledge the exceptions while still teaching the general truths of the goodness of marriage and the importance of children. And, we should be loving and include those who are unmarried and/or childless.
It just is triggering to me and I feel defensive whenever someone says that God commands us to "be fruitful and multiply", and if you don't do it you're disobeying God.
I mean, I know he told Adam and Eve to do that, but we can't take every command that God gave to every person and think that that's applicable to us as Christians under the New Covenant.
I could be missing something, but doesnt Jesus tell us to "become like children", to enter into the kingdom of God? Not necessarily to have children?
Basically I'm just wondering why Christians put that command on other Christians... it's odd.
I would offer that strengthening our church families i.e. people in each congregation really getting to know each other and love each other is the foundation that the church needs. But that's another post for another time.
My short rundown of what I believe the Bible teaches:
- Getting married is not a command, but most Christians should and will (Gen. 2:18, 1 Cor. 7:9)
- Once married, procreation is a Biblical expectation if capable (Gen. 1:28, Psalm 127:3, biological reality)
Adam and Eve were commanded to be fruitful and multiply, but Noah and his family were, too. And woven throughout the Biblical narrative is the idea that children are a blessing and childlessness is a great source of grief.
"Become like children" is about innocence, not relationship status.
More than anything, it's about accepting God's created order. He made us as relational beings, but he also put sexual desire and familial instincts into us, and none of that washes away at baptism. As I said above, there will be exceptions to both marriage and childbearing, but generally speaking a key element of being Christian is to live in acceptance of how God made us.
Evidence for this claim is how anti-created order our Godless society is. Everything they stand for is a subversion of Genesis 1-2: anti-marriage, anti-nuclear family, anti-childbearing, anti-male headship, anti-gender distinctions. The further one drifts from God, the more feminism, transgenderism, abortion, and the like come into view. The contrast is that the nearer you get to Him, the more each of these things are reversed.
My wife and I can’t have children. We are now in our 50’s and adoption isn’t a realistic option either with our aggregate health issues. It is a source of pain at times for us both.
It is always a leadership issue. The Pastor works for the Elders. If the Elders have no discernment, the Pastor pinballs from ear tickling topics to keep bums on seats. The Elders must be wise old indwelt slaves to Christ.
Indeed. And they have to understand that they are not managerial stewards - they have to have vision and decisiveness and not just play to the whims of the people.
I like both forms of content and think youre touching an important vein. Shallow unity isnt real. There is power in agreement and for that reason I want to be in a room full of people who agree. “Make every effort to be of one Spirit, one mind”. I fiercely protect my amen from anything that is not pure Truth.
Its good for churches to have filters. I have Christian brothers and sisters who are more liberal on every issue, and they may have a different (or incomplete) understanding of Scripture on certain things, but Im not here to squash those whose faith is weak, nor to needlessly offend by harping on divisive issues to win them over. The Lord will instruct them I pray. But I want them to have their lib church and me to have my Biblically literal, non-modernist church. Then we will both be in rooms with greater agreement and the Holy Spirit may move more powerfully in those separate congregations that way, rather than a hodgepodge of people some with hard hearts (me, against lib talking points) and those with indignation (libs, against God’s law).
The Gospel is the center that unites all Christians. Around that are outer rings, going: Gospel, Teleology, Ecclesiology, Denomination, Language/Nation Minor Theological Debates, Practical Actions.
The Church, globally, Body of Christ, is united on at least the Gospel, thats why its central. But any given church denomination should be united on several more rungs of the circle. Its like a family is united only on what the last name is and house address, but everything else they disagree. Thats a shallow, dysfunctional family. A congregation should be of one mind on the majority of issues. That requires a church having a filter
This is an excellent breakdown. The hardest part is for a church to accept that it's okay if they aren't everybody's cup of tea. If we decide on what we want to be and what ideas we're going to promote as not bound, but highly recommended, some people are not going to want to join in. But we have to be comfortable enough with the identity we're building.
I agree with you on the family being so important; however, many congregations are dying out because that is the only focus they had and the young people have fled these congregations. Many congregations are limping along with less than two dozen octogenarians. We must continue a balanced approach to growing our churches and not just rely on children "born into the faith" which is a misnomer itself as nobody is physically born into the faith as a human infant. Thank you for covering this topic.
There are no sound COC congregations in my region. I am curious what you think about starting over in a sense without the baggage; evangelizing unchurched to a Lord as well as a savior rather than trying to “reform” the worldly who are clearly insulated against the TRUTH. You know, like herding cats.
Elders not pushing a congregation to embrace their white privilege, or making sure their wife has the mic each Sunday as the “rethink” women’s roles would be a good start.
An eldership holding a “sound” hermeneutic accepting that language is finite can be understood, agreed upon, authoritative and unifying. Things like this.
Jack and Jonathan, I’m glad to explain a bit more without being verbose. My family is in the North East. When I moved here the only COC in town had an influential elder along with his very active and vocal wife promoting these concepts.
The elders had recently “reexamined“ women’s roles and noticeably had her speaking with a mic during services when it was his turn to preach. She wasn’t preaching, but the shift during services was obvious. Their daughter also stood and berated the congregation for twenty minutes during what was advertised as a Christmas eve service for their lack of her kind of philanthropic focus. This seems the assemblies primary concern.
This same couple promoted a series of canned vid presentations on race in which all the predictable “it’s the white churches fault” divisive rhetoric was front and center. At the end, this elder actually voiced my previous statement that the congregation needs to embrace their white privilege!
I wish this was hyperbole or that I was making this up. It is not, and I am not.
It breaks my heart. My wife and I have worshiped alone since then.
Dear Jack,
With gentleness and humility, as a God fearing woman with no children, may I offer a comment?
(I greatly appreciate your thoughts, and you hit the nail right on the head with the church being more of a business model than a family, wow! Me and a friend used to laugh over how the congregation seemed like a corporation and the preacher its president! Lol)
Anyhow, I do not disagree with you that marriage and children are a beautiful thing and the foundation of God's plan for how mankind should continue.
I readily accept that some people will think that I am not being a good Christian woman because I have never been married and don't have a husband. And therefore no children. Relationships have always been a struggle for me and I've never met anyone that I thought would be a good husband for me.
I've also never had the desire to be a mother. Most women do, but some women don't. I realize that people will also judge me for that because they believe that all women should be mothers.
So what do I do? I live a quiet and simple life, devoted to the Lord. Serving him how I can, in spite of my fibromyalgia and chronic fatigue. I encourage my nephew and nieces in the Lord as much as I can . I look out for others who also might be considered outcasts by the church, especially other women who are single or divorced or come to assembly by themselves, who know they don't fit in and won't be readily welcomed because they don't fit the "ideal picture" of a woman, i.e. they don't have a husband and children under the age of 18.
Are these women precious to the Lord? I believe they are. Am I still precious to the Lord? I believe I am.
I think that Paul defends the unmarried in 1st Corinthians 7. I also believe that Jesus understood people situations that not everyone would be able to have children, as he defends eunuchs and the childless In Matthew 19:12
So I understand your viewpoint on marriage and children, I do, but please also understand that every person has their own complications and challenges and unique gifts in life and having a spouse and children is not the only way to be a servant. If it was, then I would truly be an outcast in the family of God. But I know that Jesus loves me and cares about me, I matter. no matter what my marital status is or reproductive status is.
All i humbly ask is for your mercy, on me and all those like me, trying to serve the Lord even though we don't fit the ideal standard.
May God bless you and have a wonderful day! Keep up the good writing, I very much enjoy your thoughts!
Absolutely - there will always be exceptions, and my heart goes out to each of you. It seems like you're contributing to the church in your own way in your situation, and that's all you can do. My own sister is one who would love to be married but has yet to find a mate, so I understand and empathize with the predicament.
I think we have to be able to acknowledge the exceptions while still teaching the general truths of the goodness of marriage and the importance of children. And, we should be loving and include those who are unmarried and/or childless.
Thank you for understanding.
It just is triggering to me and I feel defensive whenever someone says that God commands us to "be fruitful and multiply", and if you don't do it you're disobeying God.
I mean, I know he told Adam and Eve to do that, but we can't take every command that God gave to every person and think that that's applicable to us as Christians under the New Covenant.
I could be missing something, but doesnt Jesus tell us to "become like children", to enter into the kingdom of God? Not necessarily to have children?
Basically I'm just wondering why Christians put that command on other Christians... it's odd.
I would offer that strengthening our church families i.e. people in each congregation really getting to know each other and love each other is the foundation that the church needs. But that's another post for another time.
My short rundown of what I believe the Bible teaches:
- Getting married is not a command, but most Christians should and will (Gen. 2:18, 1 Cor. 7:9)
- Once married, procreation is a Biblical expectation if capable (Gen. 1:28, Psalm 127:3, biological reality)
Adam and Eve were commanded to be fruitful and multiply, but Noah and his family were, too. And woven throughout the Biblical narrative is the idea that children are a blessing and childlessness is a great source of grief.
"Become like children" is about innocence, not relationship status.
More than anything, it's about accepting God's created order. He made us as relational beings, but he also put sexual desire and familial instincts into us, and none of that washes away at baptism. As I said above, there will be exceptions to both marriage and childbearing, but generally speaking a key element of being Christian is to live in acceptance of how God made us.
Evidence for this claim is how anti-created order our Godless society is. Everything they stand for is a subversion of Genesis 1-2: anti-marriage, anti-nuclear family, anti-childbearing, anti-male headship, anti-gender distinctions. The further one drifts from God, the more feminism, transgenderism, abortion, and the like come into view. The contrast is that the nearer you get to Him, the more each of these things are reversed.
Hi Aimee
My wife and I can’t have children. We are now in our 50’s and adoption isn’t a realistic option either with our aggregate health issues. It is a source of pain at times for us both.
You are not alone in this.
In His love
It is always a leadership issue. The Pastor works for the Elders. If the Elders have no discernment, the Pastor pinballs from ear tickling topics to keep bums on seats. The Elders must be wise old indwelt slaves to Christ.
Indeed. And they have to understand that they are not managerial stewards - they have to have vision and decisiveness and not just play to the whims of the people.
I like both forms of content and think youre touching an important vein. Shallow unity isnt real. There is power in agreement and for that reason I want to be in a room full of people who agree. “Make every effort to be of one Spirit, one mind”. I fiercely protect my amen from anything that is not pure Truth.
Its good for churches to have filters. I have Christian brothers and sisters who are more liberal on every issue, and they may have a different (or incomplete) understanding of Scripture on certain things, but Im not here to squash those whose faith is weak, nor to needlessly offend by harping on divisive issues to win them over. The Lord will instruct them I pray. But I want them to have their lib church and me to have my Biblically literal, non-modernist church. Then we will both be in rooms with greater agreement and the Holy Spirit may move more powerfully in those separate congregations that way, rather than a hodgepodge of people some with hard hearts (me, against lib talking points) and those with indignation (libs, against God’s law).
The Gospel is the center that unites all Christians. Around that are outer rings, going: Gospel, Teleology, Ecclesiology, Denomination, Language/Nation Minor Theological Debates, Practical Actions.
The Church, globally, Body of Christ, is united on at least the Gospel, thats why its central. But any given church denomination should be united on several more rungs of the circle. Its like a family is united only on what the last name is and house address, but everything else they disagree. Thats a shallow, dysfunctional family. A congregation should be of one mind on the majority of issues. That requires a church having a filter
This is an excellent breakdown. The hardest part is for a church to accept that it's okay if they aren't everybody's cup of tea. If we decide on what we want to be and what ideas we're going to promote as not bound, but highly recommended, some people are not going to want to join in. But we have to be comfortable enough with the identity we're building.
Amen Mr. Jack…
I agree with you on the family being so important; however, many congregations are dying out because that is the only focus they had and the young people have fled these congregations. Many congregations are limping along with less than two dozen octogenarians. We must continue a balanced approach to growing our churches and not just rely on children "born into the faith" which is a misnomer itself as nobody is physically born into the faith as a human infant. Thank you for covering this topic.
There are no sound COC congregations in my region. I am curious what you think about starting over in a sense without the baggage; evangelizing unchurched to a Lord as well as a savior rather than trying to “reform” the worldly who are clearly insulated against the TRUTH. You know, like herding cats.
Elders not pushing a congregation to embrace their white privilege, or making sure their wife has the mic each Sunday as the “rethink” women’s roles would be a good start.
An eldership holding a “sound” hermeneutic accepting that language is finite can be understood, agreed upon, authoritative and unifying. Things like this.
If I sound snarky, please excuse my ardor. 😁
I also would like a bit more explanation on the white privilege and "wife has the mic" comments.
Does this mean the church pushes the idea that all white people are privileged, and they are moving toward women in the pulpit??
Jack and Jonathan, I’m glad to explain a bit more without being verbose. My family is in the North East. When I moved here the only COC in town had an influential elder along with his very active and vocal wife promoting these concepts.
The elders had recently “reexamined“ women’s roles and noticeably had her speaking with a mic during services when it was his turn to preach. She wasn’t preaching, but the shift during services was obvious. Their daughter also stood and berated the congregation for twenty minutes during what was advertised as a Christmas eve service for their lack of her kind of philanthropic focus. This seems the assemblies primary concern.
This same couple promoted a series of canned vid presentations on race in which all the predictable “it’s the white churches fault” divisive rhetoric was front and center. At the end, this elder actually voiced my previous statement that the congregation needs to embrace their white privilege!
I wish this was hyperbole or that I was making this up. It is not, and I am not.
It breaks my heart. My wife and I have worshiped alone since then.
Are you joking?