We are too busy judging family members. Studying churches of Christ in the US has been an eyeopener for me. The name-calling (Anti-church, one-cuppers, KJV onlyism...) all things which do not mean a thing in mission fields! Until it is exported from the US to those fields.
Being lambasted by someone because I was a liberal and later hearing that "o, he was my best friend" in an entirely different setting does us no good.
Our loss of respect for one another does not help.
We preach autonomy - but judge one another mercilessly. Or we are too busy wanting to be just like X church, where they have the fancy coffee bar or the great smoke machine.
In the meantime, we have created our own clergy, with currently 16 paid minister roles, from the cheapest (Youth minister) to the most expensive (Worship minister - Check the ACU research).
Missions are cut, we used the generic SBC bible materials and in the meantime wonder away from where we intended to be...
The church existed before the Restoration movement and so why all the fuss over some denominational men who tried to come out of denominationalism?
The church began a long time before the Restoration movement AND the church existed in North American before Stone and Campbell.
Restoration churches of Christ
are following men and not the Bible.
We need to forget about a 200 year old Restoration movement of uninspired men and simply BE the NT church of the Bible as God patterned.
I think many would agree but it isn’t so easy to free ourselves of 200 years of Restoration history.
My comment is because the topic was the Restoration movement.
Our topic needs to be the NT church as God set up but as Alexander Campbell “restored”.
Read my comments back to Kevin if you haven’t.
The goal isn’t to point fingers but to make men think about what is going on in our own congregations and make sure we are following God and not Alexander Campbell or Guy N. Woods or any other uninspired man.
Thank you, brother. I often go to the LaVista Church articles and find them very valuable and challenging. Not that I always agree with them, but I often do. I will read the entire article and let you know my thoughts. Where do you live? I live in Colorado where I feel like I am freezing most of the year. It would be great to sit down with a cup of coffee someplace and talk and study together. I am a great fan of this forum and hope others like my wife and I will decide on a paid subscription. Jack is a wonderful and challenging thinker. I appreciate your sincere seeking of the truth.
Jack, self reflection is good and when we expose our own errors it is hard to swallow.
I have done this with “our” Restoration churches of Christ and my conclusion was and still is this….The Stone/Campbell churches of Christ are another denomination.
We do not need to know any Restoration history to be the NT church of the Bible today. God gave us the pattern for our local assemblies and we can be/restore the same NT church that existed 2000 years ago.
We have, in churches of Christ, entrenched man made traditions just like every other denomination.
One example….
“You” will be hard pressed to find a church of Christ congregation of the Restoration movement where even a few women cover their heads in worship.
Why? Because of the traditions of man.
I think, the royal “we”, the church of Christ of our day, is guilty of forsaking the commandments of God for the traditions of men.
There are several ways to define a denomination. By some definitions, the churches of Christ are a denomination, by others we are not. By some definitions, there are individual congregations that behave as if they are part of a denomination and other congregations that do not.
Because of the diversity of these definitions, I find it unhelpful for anyone to make a blanket statement that Restoration churches are a denomination. But it certainly fits the current provocative style of communication, particularly online.
I want to know why the NT church of Christ here in NA is so “loyal” to what happened only 200 years ago.
When I obeyed the Gospel it wasn’t because I knew who Alexander Campbell was.
I am not a member of a Restoration church of Christ from the late 1800’s myself and I think most members of churches of Christ would say the same. If this be so why
can’t we leave a movement stepped in division from 200 years ago behind in history and apart from us today?
I know a Harding graduate who
has a Masters in Divinity and he said this from the pulpit…
“We stand on the shoulders of men like Alexander Campbell!”
Is that what years of biblical college has taught us?
Do we not stand on the shoulders of the Apostles who are the foundation of the Lord’s church which began on the day of Pentecost? I think so.
If we stand on the shoulders of uninspired men, we are a denomination.
With all due respect, I must disagree with your statement that we are a denomination. Having been raised in three mainstream protestant denominations I see a great difference. Every denomination I know of has a national headquarters made up of men and women. They have authority over all the congregations of these groups. We do not have that.
We are drifting away from true New Testament Christianity because we often accept the authority of men over scriptures. It is a sad truth. I was removed from teaching 11 years ago because I went to leadership when at a family camp they put flyers in all the rooms stating we would have the Lord's Supper on Saturday instead of Sunday. I had served as a full-time personal evangelist at three previous congregations and as an elder at two of those. I had been the deacon of outreach at this church and taught evangelism every other quarter. They also removed my adult son from teaching because of this. I went to the elder in charge privately to explain why I believed there was no scriptural authority for this decision and that it would be divisive. He responded that he believed we could do the communion anytime we wanted and had no need to do it on Sunday and that the members who disagreed with it could just not participate.
None of the other elders, preacher or 'Executive' minister, find that in the scriptures, had an issue with it. I received a letter a few days later stating that I could either stay and not say anything or leave and not say anything. It stated that the elders have the authority to do whatever they want as long as it is not a 'salvation issue.' This is incorrect teaching. But that does not make them a denomination. It makes them immature Christians who can barely handle the milk of the Word. Hang in there my brother.
Kevin, 200 years of the traditions of men from the Restoration movement are very hard to overcome. I grew up on the pew and it took me 40 years of sincere searching for only the truth to assess my own church soberly. So many problems continue to pile up in the church of our day and why?
Because we are not holding to the authority of scripture.
Why? Because “we” follow what “Grandpa” did.
Following men equals a denomination.
I went back in search of why and all roads lead me back to the Restoration movement.
Alexander Campbell tried to overcome his denominational past but he didn’t make it out, in my sincere opinion.
Where is our Biblical authority
and structure for a church of Christ College?
A qualified Elder must be able to teach? Who needs that today when we all go off to our college to be trained?
Where is the biblical pattern for oversight of the doctrine taught at our schools? There isn’t any.
Again another job of a qualified Elder. Oh and good luck finding many Elders today who actually qualify Biblically.
The local assembly is the only “institution” authorized by God for teaching within the church.
I agree with you and for years said the same… We have no earthly headquarters.
This is true.
BUT….. here it comes…lol
Bethany College, one of the first of “our” colleges was started by the school teacher Alexander Campbell.
Why does this matter?
Well, try and find a congregation that will hire a preacher who has not gone or who will be going, to one of OUR colleges to be trained.
Rare. Yes there are some who would hire a lowly shepherd
boy with no degree from one of OUR colleges, but few. Notice how I capitalize “OUR”. This is the problem. The church isn’t “ours” at all. Denominations are the possession of men but not the Lord’s church of the NT.
Our schools, although not labelled as our headquarters, are the headquarters of the Restoration churches of Christ.
“Our” schools hold the last word/authority on the doctrine of Restoration churches of Christ.
We are too busy judging family members. Studying churches of Christ in the US has been an eyeopener for me. The name-calling (Anti-church, one-cuppers, KJV onlyism...) all things which do not mean a thing in mission fields! Until it is exported from the US to those fields.
Being lambasted by someone because I was a liberal and later hearing that "o, he was my best friend" in an entirely different setting does us no good.
Our loss of respect for one another does not help.
We preach autonomy - but judge one another mercilessly. Or we are too busy wanting to be just like X church, where they have the fancy coffee bar or the great smoke machine.
In the meantime, we have created our own clergy, with currently 16 paid minister roles, from the cheapest (Youth minister) to the most expensive (Worship minister - Check the ACU research).
Missions are cut, we used the generic SBC bible materials and in the meantime wonder away from where we intended to be...
I have never heard of a congregation using generic Southern Baptist Convention Bible class materials. Why would they do this?
“Restoration stagnant”—just came across this phrase.
The church existed before the Restoration movement and so why all the fuss over some denominational men who tried to come out of denominationalism?
The church began a long time before the Restoration movement AND the church existed in North American before Stone and Campbell.
Restoration churches of Christ
are following men and not the Bible.
We need to forget about a 200 year old Restoration movement of uninspired men and simply BE the NT church of the Bible as God patterned.
I think many would agree but it isn’t so easy to free ourselves of 200 years of Restoration history.
My comment is because the topic was the Restoration movement.
Our topic needs to be the NT church as God set up but as Alexander Campbell “restored”.
Read my comments back to Kevin if you haven’t.
The goal isn’t to point fingers but to make men think about what is going on in our own congregations and make sure we are following God and not Alexander Campbell or Guy N. Woods or any other uninspired man.
Thank you, brother. I often go to the LaVista Church articles and find them very valuable and challenging. Not that I always agree with them, but I often do. I will read the entire article and let you know my thoughts. Where do you live? I live in Colorado where I feel like I am freezing most of the year. It would be great to sit down with a cup of coffee someplace and talk and study together. I am a great fan of this forum and hope others like my wife and I will decide on a paid subscription. Jack is a wonderful and challenging thinker. I appreciate your sincere seeking of the truth.
Jack, self reflection is good and when we expose our own errors it is hard to swallow.
I have done this with “our” Restoration churches of Christ and my conclusion was and still is this….The Stone/Campbell churches of Christ are another denomination.
We do not need to know any Restoration history to be the NT church of the Bible today. God gave us the pattern for our local assemblies and we can be/restore the same NT church that existed 2000 years ago.
We have, in churches of Christ, entrenched man made traditions just like every other denomination.
One example….
“You” will be hard pressed to find a church of Christ congregation of the Restoration movement where even a few women cover their heads in worship.
Why? Because of the traditions of man.
I think, the royal “we”, the church of Christ of our day, is guilty of forsaking the commandments of God for the traditions of men.
There are several ways to define a denomination. By some definitions, the churches of Christ are a denomination, by others we are not. By some definitions, there are individual congregations that behave as if they are part of a denomination and other congregations that do not.
Because of the diversity of these definitions, I find it unhelpful for anyone to make a blanket statement that Restoration churches are a denomination. But it certainly fits the current provocative style of communication, particularly online.
Good point Clark. I agree.
My comment was to spur on some self reflection.
I want to know why the NT church of Christ here in NA is so “loyal” to what happened only 200 years ago.
When I obeyed the Gospel it wasn’t because I knew who Alexander Campbell was.
I am not a member of a Restoration church of Christ from the late 1800’s myself and I think most members of churches of Christ would say the same. If this be so why
can’t we leave a movement stepped in division from 200 years ago behind in history and apart from us today?
I know a Harding graduate who
has a Masters in Divinity and he said this from the pulpit…
“We stand on the shoulders of men like Alexander Campbell!”
Is that what years of biblical college has taught us?
Do we not stand on the shoulders of the Apostles who are the foundation of the Lord’s church which began on the day of Pentecost? I think so.
If we stand on the shoulders of uninspired men, we are a denomination.
I pray most of us agree where our roots are.
With all due respect, I must disagree with your statement that we are a denomination. Having been raised in three mainstream protestant denominations I see a great difference. Every denomination I know of has a national headquarters made up of men and women. They have authority over all the congregations of these groups. We do not have that.
We are drifting away from true New Testament Christianity because we often accept the authority of men over scriptures. It is a sad truth. I was removed from teaching 11 years ago because I went to leadership when at a family camp they put flyers in all the rooms stating we would have the Lord's Supper on Saturday instead of Sunday. I had served as a full-time personal evangelist at three previous congregations and as an elder at two of those. I had been the deacon of outreach at this church and taught evangelism every other quarter. They also removed my adult son from teaching because of this. I went to the elder in charge privately to explain why I believed there was no scriptural authority for this decision and that it would be divisive. He responded that he believed we could do the communion anytime we wanted and had no need to do it on Sunday and that the members who disagreed with it could just not participate.
None of the other elders, preacher or 'Executive' minister, find that in the scriptures, had an issue with it. I received a letter a few days later stating that I could either stay and not say anything or leave and not say anything. It stated that the elders have the authority to do whatever they want as long as it is not a 'salvation issue.' This is incorrect teaching. But that does not make them a denomination. It makes them immature Christians who can barely handle the milk of the Word. Hang in there my brother.
Kevin, 200 years of the traditions of men from the Restoration movement are very hard to overcome. I grew up on the pew and it took me 40 years of sincere searching for only the truth to assess my own church soberly. So many problems continue to pile up in the church of our day and why?
Because we are not holding to the authority of scripture.
Why? Because “we” follow what “Grandpa” did.
Following men equals a denomination.
I went back in search of why and all roads lead me back to the Restoration movement.
Alexander Campbell tried to overcome his denominational past but he didn’t make it out, in my sincere opinion.
Where is our Biblical authority
and structure for a church of Christ College?
A qualified Elder must be able to teach? Who needs that today when we all go off to our college to be trained?
Where is the biblical pattern for oversight of the doctrine taught at our schools? There isn’t any.
Again another job of a qualified Elder. Oh and good luck finding many Elders today who actually qualify Biblically.
The local assembly is the only “institution” authorized by God for teaching within the church.
https://www.lavistachurchofchrist.org/cms/the-college-issue/
Kevin, take some time and read this very good study written a few decades ago. You will be glad you took the time.
Make sure you read to the very end.
Awesome to hear you stood up for the truth.
I agree with you and for years said the same… We have no earthly headquarters.
This is true.
BUT….. here it comes…lol
Bethany College, one of the first of “our” colleges was started by the school teacher Alexander Campbell.
Why does this matter?
Well, try and find a congregation that will hire a preacher who has not gone or who will be going, to one of OUR colleges to be trained.
Rare. Yes there are some who would hire a lowly shepherd
boy with no degree from one of OUR colleges, but few. Notice how I capitalize “OUR”. This is the problem. The church isn’t “ours” at all. Denominations are the possession of men but not the Lord’s church of the NT.
Our schools, although not labelled as our headquarters, are the headquarters of the Restoration churches of Christ.
“Our” schools hold the last word/authority on the doctrine of Restoration churches of Christ.
I wish it were not so but sadly it is.