Seems like we've been listening in on each other's conversations, Jack. The reason the West/world is this bad is the church isn't doing her job. I hadn't thought to link this with God's discipline, but that makes perfect sense.
It’s a common trope to complain that the word “Christian” has lost its meaning but churches have a great ability to change that if we’d stop letting unsaved people think they’re Christians.
I've always thought of the two -- persecution (to whatever degree it occurs) and discipline from the Lord as a result of our sin -- as the same. I'm one of those who thinks persecution increasing in westernized societies as ultimately a good thing because I see it as God disciplining us per Hebrews 12:3ff so as to bring about repentance AND spiritual growth. The discussion in Hebrews 12 about God disciplining his children out of love with the end result being their spiritual strengthening is given in the context discussing the persecution of the Hebrew Christians (chapters 10-11). So I think a case could be made that persecution and discipline are interchangeable to a degree.
I think you could call discipline a sub-genre of persecution, but it's not what people typically mean when they call it persecution or see it as a good thing.
The discipline of the Lord is a good thing because it brings repentance... but just as with children, maturity means learning self-discipline so you don't need your parents to do it for you. So a crumbling West will produce improvement, but we would be far better off if we learned from the past and got our act together before God has to teach us repentance.
Very true. Unfortunately, our history shows that rather than getting our act together ourselves, we tend to end up needing God to teach us repentance, which in turn can lead to spiritual growth.
Great article and I agree with all of your points. The difficulty, however, with implementation of these ideas is finding how to exercise discipline without falling into overt legalism. Discipline by its nature requires the “drawing of a line in the sand”, and that can easily become divisive and problematic. We’ve seen failure of “big tent” policy with the recent UMC split, yet there are also numerous examples of legalism resulting in needless division. When our emphasis is on the transformation of the hearts of believers, there is necessarily a degree of grace and mercy that must exist. I would be very interested to hear your thoughts on avoiding these potential traps while regaining control of discipline within our churches.
Any time we've been wrong on something we have to be wary of overcorrection, that's true. I think in so many ways we spend our time outlining what authority shouldn't do when we'd be better off outlining clearly what they should. A very clear picture of what well-executed elder authority would look like would also make it very clear when they're operating outside of that.
Had to step away and then re-read the article. I understand the point that Jack is making, and I appreciate it. Is the American Church being persecuted like the one in China or in the Middle East? No. Over there, Christians are being jailed and killed for their belief. But, in America, there's definitely "soft" persecution. I can't think of a single institution in this country that isn't following the spirit of antichrist or working overtime in trying to cancel those who follow Christ. Those of us who believe that rights come from God are vilified as being those deplorable Christian (spit!) Nationalists. Pro-life warriors and Christian universities in our country ARE being prosecuted and persecuted. Things going well for you? It's just not your turn yet.
To be clear, I'm not denying those things are happening. I just think it's important to categorize it separately, because persecution is proof we're doing our job, and discipline is proof we aren't.
Amen. Christians in America need to hear this.
Spot on Jack. Thank you for this insight.
Seems like we've been listening in on each other's conversations, Jack. The reason the West/world is this bad is the church isn't doing her job. I hadn't thought to link this with God's discipline, but that makes perfect sense.
It’s a common trope to complain that the word “Christian” has lost its meaning but churches have a great ability to change that if we’d stop letting unsaved people think they’re Christians.
I've always thought of the two -- persecution (to whatever degree it occurs) and discipline from the Lord as a result of our sin -- as the same. I'm one of those who thinks persecution increasing in westernized societies as ultimately a good thing because I see it as God disciplining us per Hebrews 12:3ff so as to bring about repentance AND spiritual growth. The discussion in Hebrews 12 about God disciplining his children out of love with the end result being their spiritual strengthening is given in the context discussing the persecution of the Hebrew Christians (chapters 10-11). So I think a case could be made that persecution and discipline are interchangeable to a degree.
I think you could call discipline a sub-genre of persecution, but it's not what people typically mean when they call it persecution or see it as a good thing.
The discipline of the Lord is a good thing because it brings repentance... but just as with children, maturity means learning self-discipline so you don't need your parents to do it for you. So a crumbling West will produce improvement, but we would be far better off if we learned from the past and got our act together before God has to teach us repentance.
Very true. Unfortunately, our history shows that rather than getting our act together ourselves, we tend to end up needing God to teach us repentance, which in turn can lead to spiritual growth.
Great article and I agree with all of your points. The difficulty, however, with implementation of these ideas is finding how to exercise discipline without falling into overt legalism. Discipline by its nature requires the “drawing of a line in the sand”, and that can easily become divisive and problematic. We’ve seen failure of “big tent” policy with the recent UMC split, yet there are also numerous examples of legalism resulting in needless division. When our emphasis is on the transformation of the hearts of believers, there is necessarily a degree of grace and mercy that must exist. I would be very interested to hear your thoughts on avoiding these potential traps while regaining control of discipline within our churches.
Any time we've been wrong on something we have to be wary of overcorrection, that's true. I think in so many ways we spend our time outlining what authority shouldn't do when we'd be better off outlining clearly what they should. A very clear picture of what well-executed elder authority would look like would also make it very clear when they're operating outside of that.
Had to step away and then re-read the article. I understand the point that Jack is making, and I appreciate it. Is the American Church being persecuted like the one in China or in the Middle East? No. Over there, Christians are being jailed and killed for their belief. But, in America, there's definitely "soft" persecution. I can't think of a single institution in this country that isn't following the spirit of antichrist or working overtime in trying to cancel those who follow Christ. Those of us who believe that rights come from God are vilified as being those deplorable Christian (spit!) Nationalists. Pro-life warriors and Christian universities in our country ARE being prosecuted and persecuted. Things going well for you? It's just not your turn yet.
To be clear, I'm not denying those things are happening. I just think it's important to categorize it separately, because persecution is proof we're doing our job, and discipline is proof we aren't.