I would agree with you, and that is certainly the question. If it's unrepentant sin, I think we have our answer in the Scriptures. If it's an attitude that can't quite be addressed as sinful but is detrimental, I think they should be leaned upon to change over time.
Yikes! Jack, you lost me at “enforcement”. Our walk is about Jesus! ….and it’s a slow walk sometimes.
Our conversion is to Jesus! We help someone walk closer to Christ by walking with them, ie discipling them, not attempting to enforcing behavior. It takes time and it takes building a relationship with them.
I am currently discipling a young woman (wife and mother). She has made meaningful changes in her life but still has much to learn. She doesn’t yet discern as she needs to. If my husband, an elder, were to present her with a list of behaviors and activities to which she needs to conform, it would push her away from us and, quite possibly, Jesus. Instead she and I spend time in prayer, in the Word, in constant discussions about Jesus. I then SHOW her, with the word and with my own example HOW to then walk within the will of God.
Jack, I hear your frustration. I like so much what you said in Church Reset. In fact, it gave us a voice to the desire for “more”.
I fear we have “converted” a generation (or two) to a building and now are seeing the results….lack of true disciples. But the answer is Jesus!
They have a HEART problem. And likely were not converted to Christ to begin with.
Love God….love your neighbor…the two greatest commands. If someone isn’t willing to submit to those commands then what else matters? You know that being a follower of Christ is so much more than attendance to an assembly!
True disciples will WANT to be with the body to worship God. We cannot deem someone faithful (if that is even our responsibility) based on attendance. That will come as they fall deeper in love with Jesus.
Teaching them to observe all things comes with being together outside of the worship assembly and patiently walking with people in their daily lives….discipling them.
All said in love brother! Text doesn’t usually convey that.
couple questions come to mind as I'm not sure how to interpret the article -- how does this jive with "work out your own salvation with fear & trembling"? is "enforce" the right word? is this a pendulum swing from "do nothing" elders to the opposite extreme? thought provoking post
It's difficult because every individual will answer for themselves at the judgment, but they will also be someone else's responsibility to some degree. Parents answering for their kids, elders for their members, etc. And if you're going to answer for someone's soul, it only follows that you have some authority to do your part to keep them on the straight and narrow.
It can definitely go too far in the opposite direction, as I believe the Crossroads movement infamously demonstrated. I think we're far nearer the other ditch though.
In as much as we cannot change someone but self, I also believe we can help shape a child or direct them become better children but we have a limit.
So my question or worry is ' to what limit or extent can we enforce'? And what next if after all said and done the brother or sister changes not??????
I would agree with you, and that is certainly the question. If it's unrepentant sin, I think we have our answer in the Scriptures. If it's an attitude that can't quite be addressed as sinful but is detrimental, I think they should be leaned upon to change over time.
Yikes! Jack, you lost me at “enforcement”. Our walk is about Jesus! ….and it’s a slow walk sometimes.
Our conversion is to Jesus! We help someone walk closer to Christ by walking with them, ie discipling them, not attempting to enforcing behavior. It takes time and it takes building a relationship with them.
I am currently discipling a young woman (wife and mother). She has made meaningful changes in her life but still has much to learn. She doesn’t yet discern as she needs to. If my husband, an elder, were to present her with a list of behaviors and activities to which she needs to conform, it would push her away from us and, quite possibly, Jesus. Instead she and I spend time in prayer, in the Word, in constant discussions about Jesus. I then SHOW her, with the word and with my own example HOW to then walk within the will of God.
Jack, I hear your frustration. I like so much what you said in Church Reset. In fact, it gave us a voice to the desire for “more”.
I fear we have “converted” a generation (or two) to a building and now are seeing the results….lack of true disciples. But the answer is Jesus!
I think you may have seen “enforcement” and read into it something I didn’t say.
I am not advocating giving people a list. I’m advocating “teaching them to observe all he commanded” and “reprove, rebuke, and exhort.”
If someone decides they only need to attend twice a month, shouldn’t we let them know they are expected to change?
They have a HEART problem. And likely were not converted to Christ to begin with.
Love God….love your neighbor…the two greatest commands. If someone isn’t willing to submit to those commands then what else matters? You know that being a follower of Christ is so much more than attendance to an assembly!
True disciples will WANT to be with the body to worship God. We cannot deem someone faithful (if that is even our responsibility) based on attendance. That will come as they fall deeper in love with Jesus.
Teaching them to observe all things comes with being together outside of the worship assembly and patiently walking with people in their daily lives….discipling them.
All said in love brother! Text doesn’t usually convey that.
Appreciate the platform of discussion.
couple questions come to mind as I'm not sure how to interpret the article -- how does this jive with "work out your own salvation with fear & trembling"? is "enforce" the right word? is this a pendulum swing from "do nothing" elders to the opposite extreme? thought provoking post
It's difficult because every individual will answer for themselves at the judgment, but they will also be someone else's responsibility to some degree. Parents answering for their kids, elders for their members, etc. And if you're going to answer for someone's soul, it only follows that you have some authority to do your part to keep them on the straight and narrow.
It can definitely go too far in the opposite direction, as I believe the Crossroads movement infamously demonstrated. I think we're far nearer the other ditch though.
in the ditch for sure and stuck in the mud