I completely agree with everything you said!!! Many, many parents have traded teaching and training for appeasing and entertaining while worshipping God. It is detrimental for the children, and I believe, it’s one of the reasons we are losing a lot of them when they reach adulthood. Unfortunately, our congregation has “children’s church “ and it takes not only a majority of the children out, but a lot of adults and teenagers too.
We raised 3 children and had family devotionals at home where they learned about how to be respectful and participate in worship, talked each time we were heading to the church building that we were going to worship God, and all they took inside were their own Bibles. No toys, no snacks. Expectations have changed dramatically! Even the families that don’t participate in “children’s church “ bring backpacks full of activities to keep the children occupied. It grieves me because all they are learning when they go to worship, is it’s another place to play (just “quietly “).
It really is about expectations. Many people seem to think that expectations are unloving and unfair, when really that's the only way to help people grow. And that goes for the parents and the kids both.
This is all about discipline and instruction. If children are given those two things in conjunction with sitting in a pew then all the better. Most of the time, what I see is, the coloring books, the snacks, etc. broken out to manage the situation. I'm not familiar with children's church. It would be interesting if there was an option for room with a window into the auditorium for children to observe and be taught about worship. Parents should have the option to use these to help.if needed. All children are not created with the same temperament. I feel for a family with three small children where I recently attended. The wife spent many trips up and down the isle with them. But they can also provide some humor at times. One child at a congregation that I used to attend was on his 2nd trip down the isle for some behavioral correction. Not going willingly and knowing what to expect outside, he desperately called out in a loud voice " Help me...Church" Still cracks me up to this day.
Some churches (mostly small ones in my experience) had "cry rooms" for that very purpose. Mostly you used to be taught to behave in church because we were there to worship God. If I didn't, I can still feel my mother's glare from the choir loft to tell me "you better shape up!" Now we are too worried about Susie's self esteem. These children don't learn manners, consequences for their actions and being thoughtful and considerate of others. I have tried to encourage the idea that children 1st grade and up stay for the rest of the worship service instead of having 6th grade and down going to "Children's Church." Last Sunday was the first real attempt for a special service we were having. Result - not one family with children attended the service. Coincidence? Possibly. Statistically that all would not be there on the same Sunday? Doubtful.
I completely agree also as someone who has spent over 40 years in church music ministry. Children's Church has been and still is a babysitting service. Current church's families don't even bring their children to Sunday School now because "we get the same thing at Children's Church." (Of multiple reasons PCUSA is dying outside their entire woke agenda and takeover.) Most families don't show up unless little Johnny is going to be up front doing something.
I stopped doing extra work with the children because parents let anything and EVERYTHING come before church (including a scout camping trip on Palm Sunday when they were supposed to sing). I debated this because it ultimately isn't the children's fault. It is the parent's fault. But you have to remember, these are the kids that grew up in the time of "It Takes a Village," "don't hurt your child's self esteem,) the growth of divorces within the church and sports creeping in on Sundays and Wednesdays until they took that over too. Parents have taught their children that worshipping at the altar of sports is the most important. It breaks my heart to see it.
I predicted it starting in 1995 and I so wanted to be wrong (you have to also remember that is when the "seeker sensitive" and "purpose driven" drivel were really beginning to take off too. We dumbed down our churches (I still have Marva Dawn's book "Reaching Out without Dumbing Down" written in 1995.) and let Satan come right in the church's front door. I really wanted to be wrong and the attacks I endured for saying so to be proven wrong. Sadly, I have been right. But that is Satan's plan right up to the lockdowns, isn't it? The question was asked in the Bible when Jesus returns would he even find a remnant. Well.................................
Some excellent insights, brother Jack. I have two good friends who worship where there is "children's church." They don't like it, but it's been entrenched for years. Another thought. What about the adults who are tending to these kids in "children's church?" They miss out. In fact, can we even say they were in the assembly? Hmmm?
Excellent article. I always think about one of my dad's arguments against "children's church." "Should we appoint children's elders?" I can't tell you how many times I've observed little boys standing on the pew, mimicking the motions of the song leader they watched during worship. They can only say a few words, but learn in a lot of ways that people seem to ignore.
And become future ministers or church musician. I was that child who watch EVERYTHING that went on musically. I started playing to sing our little Sunday School song and the rest over 50 years later is history :0)
#4 is the tipping point. I went to a church where kids stayed in the service, the pastor stated from the pulpit they do this intentionally for the reasons you map out here, then proceeded to tell parents to train their children to be still and quiet. He even pointed out the doors where they can slip out to an adjacent hallway if needed. Then during the sermon, kids were literally running laps up and down the back pathway in the sanctuary and not a parent lifted a finger. It was beyond frustrating. If the Church goes this route, actively shepherd parents to shepherd their kids in this
Thank you for this RARE balanced take on children in church. Many of those who advocate for children in church (as I do) think the rest should take as a blessing all sorts of noise, disrespect, etc.
I wholeheartedly agree that, while we should not expect children to be silent in church, they should not be allowed to be a constant distraction. My small parish often has about a half dozen babies in the sanctuary, and the parents (and pious children) do an excellent job of that most services. It can be done!
Back when our oldest was little (better than 30 years ago), we attended a congregation that pulled the kids out separate from the adults. When she got a little older, we still had to teach her to be quiet and behave during services. Still the same process just delayed by a couple of years. It would have been just as easy to do so from the beginning.
Today, being "back home", our little congregation pulls the kids to the front just before the sermon for a 10 minute kids lesson, (we adults listen as well), then back to sit with family.
Interesting thought. I am in a grandmother role and 2 of my grandchildren live with me- their mom also lives with us but she often works on Sundays. Our very small church has been offering Children’s church only during the sermon- kids are with families the rest of the time. We have a difficult time finding people to do it but I wonder if we are missing something.
It’s a challenge for sure. We are currently offering children’s church for ages 5 and up- one teacher, one class. We are a beach area so, our numbers go way up in the summer but we will have anywhere from 0 - 5 kids (unless there’s a holiday) during the rest of the year. I did it for a while but prefer to sit in the sanctuary for the sermon.
I do believe part of the issue everywhere is parents taking more responsibility for their children’s behavior in general. And as a retired teacher, I am well aware of the many reasons why it doesn’t work for some kids and their families.
Maybe instead of offering Children’s church, it’s offering parents a place to take their kids and parents stay with their children in that space until the child is ready to come back to the service.
One thing that I thought was absolutely lovely at a previous church I attended was some rocking chairs set up outside of the sanctuary with audio so parents especially with those with babies could rock their children and still hear the service.
Maybe suggest having the 1st graders and up stay and participate in worship along with their families. That is the other side of the issue though with CC workers. My church has a group of people who plan a lesson and actually do something. Sadly most don't and people don't want to be out of the service to babysit.
What's really needed at the root of this discussion (like most discussions about ecclesiological matters these days) is better faith discussion and less assumptions about the "other side" of the opinion.
The pro-children's church side, for the most part, wants their kids to know the Bible. And they recognize that the methods we use in churches today (a lecture/sermon) is not an effective means for most kids to truly learn the Scriptures. I generally don't understand how it could be construed as a bad thing to teach kids at their age-appropriate level. If you feel that is more effectively done with the kids in the pew next to you, great! I would pray God blesses that!
But I wish the discussion would have more grace and less arrogance. Go look at the responses Luke received on that post. The post wasn't great... but the absolute Christ-lessness of many of those responses doesn't inspire any confidence that the "we teach our kids the Bible at home" and the "Children's Church will just make your kids apostasize" crowd is really doing anything effective... the Word of God clearly hasn't made an impact on their own behavior.
I suppose this is the beauty of the Restoration Movement: each congregation gets to operate under their own Biblical conscience and we get to mind our business.
But to quote a 19th Century novel: "The Puritans idea of hell is a place where everyone has to mind their own business.”
"The pro-children's church side, for the most part, wants their kids to know the Bible." That was always what Sunday School was about where all members of the family went to their age appropriate class and then join back together for corporate worship.
"It would be easy for them and for us to just send them away. But that’s trading long term habit building for short term convenience." So true. That concept is where milennials on down have sprouted from.
Thanks for posting this article, I have really enjoyed reading the comments and what others have had to say on this topic!
The church I grew up in had children's church. aka "Bible Hour." There was puppets and a robot that spit out memory verses on a strip of paper! It was cool, but even back then, I knew it was to keep the kids like me entertained. They stopped having it when I was in 7th grade. Looking back, I was glad it went away because the teenagers had to help in there. and I wanted to hear the lessons from the preacher, and the kids need to too, even if they were little.
I love the example you brought up from the Old Testament, where everyone stood and listened the word of God, not separating young ones from their parents.
But to change direction a little (and I say this in love, ok?) and just to look at the big picture here, we can praise God or pray to him or sing to him at anytime and anywhere, right? If God doesn't live in the church building, then we don't need to "GO SOMEWHERE" to thank him or praise him or pray to him. But, I know this is traditionally believed.
But where did we get this idea that we have to go somewhere from? Martin Luther, in his re-forming of the Catholic Mass, said that "Worship is now characterized by two things: thanksgiving and service." But is this what the Bible says?
Sure, we can thank God when we are together, but we can thank him at anytime, anywhere. As for "service", we are to be servants of God and living sacrifices - every day, all the time, not just one hour a week. The phrase "worship service" isn't in the New Testament, but also passed down from Martin Luther's teaching that worship should last an hour and and is a "service".
(and BTW, I know I say this alot, but Romans 12:1 and Hebrews 12:28 which talk about what pleases God, are not talking about worship. They are talking about priestly service as living sacrifices (Rom. 12:1) and serving God generally (Heb. 12:28. ) 1952 was the first year these verses were translated as worship. and there is no Greek or Hebrew word for "worship" anyhow).
So why did the first century church assemble? I know we have long believed it was to praise and worship to God , but again, that's Martin Luther's teaching. And I know we commonly think that worship is what pleases God based on Hebrews 12:28, but that verse says that serving God is what pleases him - worship was added in and replaced that word for serving beginning in 1952 with the RSV Bible.
So what does the Bible say is the reason for assembling??? 1 Cor. 14 tells us repeatedly that it's to edify each other. (and also in 1 Cor. 11 we are instructed to share in the Lord's supper). but primarily the assembly of the church is for each other.
It's not for God, specifically. That's what living our life as living sacrifices is for - for God, that's what pleases him, NOT how we "worship". (as that word "worship" replaces other words like bow down, serve or fear and is not in the original text)
So we can stop being scared that we aren't pleasing God or that God will send fire down on us (as we have unfortunately been misled to believe that's what Hebrews 12:29 teaches) if we are distracted at some moments by our children and their needs for the time we come together.
I will say this, last month they announced they would be closing Children's Church once a month to allow everyone to attend the service, and that he (our pastor) felt it was important for the children to witness their parents worshiping. I have a feeling the latter wasn't the secondary reason, the first being they couldn't get enough volunteers every Sunday. I will admit, the option of the children's church does get people into our church that wouldn't come because they feel they are not equipped to train their children. So I feel that having the option for under 6yo to leave after music, before the sermon could be an option. I also hope our church, when it builds a larger one (we are currently in a tiny gymnasium), will have a "nursing room" for mom's with babies and toddlers that want to bring their children to church, but need to step out for various reasons. We had that room at my church growing up. It was adjacent to the sanctuary. It was called the "parlor room". I thought it was the loveliest room in the whole church. It even had a television to watch the sermon. It was for women and children only during church. It was also used as a sitting room for funerals. Anyway, I do think that its not a black and white issue. There do need to be options. But I do agree with the sentiment that 6yo have the capability and necessity to be in church. But being trained by their parents, and not being allowed to misbehave in church and be a distraction. We have to start teaching church etiquette to our children. Unfortunately, most adults don't know church etiquette themselves. Another topic?
"the option of the children's church does get people into our church that wouldn't come because they feel they are not equipped to train their children"
I think this is the bigger crux of the matter: while yes, the ideal should be that a parent teaches their own kids the Bible at home, we have to understand that's not the reality.
Think about a family that walks into church for the first time. The parents haven't been to church since they were kids. Their kids have never been... they don't really know much about church, the Bible, etc., but they feel led to go to church. That family isn't reading the Bible at home. At least not yet. There is no foundation for their kids. Their kids know nothing about the Bible at all...
But the church's expectation is simply: "well, your kids should be watching you worship!" Uhh, the parents don't even know what that means... how can it be modeled to the kids???
Children's ministry can (and should) be for the purpose of evangelism. It can (and should) be for the purpose of our kids knowing Jesus.
***
We talk about the risks of children's ministry: "it's just babysitting" "they aren't understanding what it is to sit in church" "it's just a movie and a snack" (some of those accusations are true, most of the time, they aren't)... but we don't talk about any of the risks of not having them:
-Kids can sit in church, observe their parents worshipping, hear the prayers, sing the songs, observe the sacraments... but have genuinely no understanding WHY it's happening.
-Kids can know every part of the church, but little about Jesus.
-Kids can know what it means to hear a sermon, but not pick up on a single thing.
We have to understand the risks to both sides. And we have to be gracious about it. We have to understand that not every person who darkens the door of a church is at the same point in their faith or their family's faith.
We can acknowledge that people might not walk in ready to teach their family the faith without solving it with a band-aid. Long-term, they and the kids are far better off if churches invest in teaching them how to raise faithful families rather than trying to do it for them.
I suppose if you choose to minimize children's church to a "substitute", you might come to this conclusion. I reject that idea altogether. I see children's church as a *resource* for families to raise their kids in the faith.
I'll use this example: our church sits next to a school that has free lunches every day during the summer. Most of the kids who receive them are from food-scarce homes. Is it good, long-term, for those kids to rely on those meals? No. Of course not... it's one meal a day. But I'd fear what happens without them, as well.
Those meals are an important resource for those kids who wouldn't otherwise have food at home.
We can both teach parents how to raise faithful families and, at the same time, provide them resources and starting points to ensure that their kids are getting SOMETHING.
There’s the big difference. The government really can’t be expected to get those parents to be better providers. The church not only can be expected to help equip parents to raise Christianst—it must do so.
Again, this is a great ideal. And one I agree with.
But in the real world (where I pastor) that's not how it always works. So the question remains: for the children whose parents have fully abdicated their Christian responsibility to lead their kids in the faith, where does the church come into play? Do we? Or do we just let the kids continue on their path toward hell because they have crappy parents?
There's the issue, once again. It has been done up until 1970. It is still currently done in many places. And yet the advocates of children's church act as if it's a choice between dividing the worship and losing our kids to hell.
I would counter once again that our dropout rate has STEEPLY increased since we started doing things like children's church.
Long-term, sure. I think I'd agree. But I suppose one of the frustrating parts about this discussion is that while all the "family-integrated worship" dogmatists have no problem making hasty generalizations about children's ministry and sharing all the problems with it, they fully ignored the reality that their side has its challenges, too.
I can give you, anecdotally, over a dozen cases of kids from churches that lacked a children's ministry who fully walked away from church. They were in church with mom and dad every Sunday. They watched their parents worship... they knew the prayers. They were worshipping, but none of it stuck, because at no point in time did they ever fully understand *why*. They never understood the connection of the worship back to the Word. It was pure routine for them. Frankly, that's not any better than giving kids Teddy Grahams and putting on 321 Penguins in a separate room.
The long-term solution is to teach your kids the Bible at home. Worship at home. Pray at home.
If you're doing that, sending the kids to children's ministry will be just fine. So will keeping the kids in the service. If you're not, it won't matter which side of the debate you fall on.
Just in my experience, the people who don't send their kids to children's ministry when it's available are usually the ones who have the Bible open at home.
So I guess the question must be asked: what about the kids whose parents don't teach the Bible at home? What do we do about that as the church? Just say to the kids, "sorry that your parents suck at their responsibility... no Bible for you!"??
One of the greater challenges to this discussion is that it operates under the ideals. But we don't pastor an ideal world... we pastor a real world, and we have to consider the real world issues.
If your kid doesn't need children's church, great! Praise God! I'd argue it isn't for your kid. But many kids come to church and they live in households where their parents aren't doing jack squat in terms of raising them in the faith.
Refusing to provide anything for those kids, in my opinion, is the definition of hindering them.
It's still just a bandaid, and bandaids usually keep us from investing in bigger solutions.
The youth dropout rate soaring in the era of youth groups and children's church isn't a coincidence. When the church grabs some of the responsibility, the parents step back.
Well, gosh darn, how we all survived and grew into Biblically based Christians is just mindboggling. I have been in church ministry for over 40 years in almost every mainline denomination and watch this movement grow into what it is now. My church at least has a lesson in their children's church, but when parents don't come to church when we are having a worship service where we want the family to worship together. Parents have stopped bringing their children to Sunday School because "well, they get the same thing at Children's Church." And I guess I was just dumb to sit in church and paying attention to everything and we LEARNED what worship was about. There used to be something called Biblical instruction in Sunday School, in other church ministries (choir) and at home. Parents have become lazy and grew up in the "entertain me in church" culture that derived from the seeker-sensitive, purpose driven attack on the American Church. You can try to argue it away, but the facts are the facts.
Last fall, our pastor had an outburst in the middle of the sermon about a baby that was babbling. Truly sweet baby noises. Not at all distracting. Not to anyone but him. He suggested anyone with children should "utilize the children's ministry". I was flabbergasted! I was crying before I could get out of the building. My heart broke for the woman with the baby. I didn't see her. But she could have been a new mother. Maybe young. Maybe brand new to the church. Maybe struggling with motherhood. Maybe even mental health. My God! I was furious for her. The next Sunday, I only wrote on the comment card, "Mark 10:14". I imagine I could not have possibly been the only one that was hurt by his remarks. The following Sunday (2 weeks later) he gave a half-hearted apology to the congregation. Blaming his "ADHD" and said he gets distracted easily. What? You're a pastor! Nonetheless, I prayed diligently for him. Every Sunday, when I hear a baby cry or a toddler talking, I pray hard for him to stay focused and for God to give him a heart of love for the children. I told my husband, I don't think he spends much time with children (even though he has 3 of his own). I don't think he spends a lot of quality time with his own. They are not at all behaved themselves. He even jokes often in his sermons about their bad behavior...
I've hesitated to say anything because I wasn't there. However you did just write badly about your pastor in public, so I will defend him.
Persistent non-stop babbling can wear out someone trying to hear a sermon or other address. What may be sweet baby noises to you and others may cause someone to struggle to understand a sermon. I am one of those who have a lot of trouble blocking out background noise to understand the human voice. An occasional noise here and there is not a problem. And I rejoice that my parish is having a baby boom. When it is non-stop and not all that quiet, it is an exhausting problem. It happens rarely at my church, but it did last Sunday.
Again, I wasn't there at your church. But I have trouble believing a pastor would stop a sermon over just "sweet baby noises."
Did you read the part where he apologized to the congregation? It was a bad look for any pastor and he knew it or he felt pressured to apologize. He was very rude and singled out a family. It did not come from gentleness and love. He mentioned that in his apology. Not only that, he has since reversed course and is making an attempt to change. There are all kinds of distractions. Pastors have to roll with it. And he is doing much better. We love our pastor very much. We're routing for him. And always praying for him.
Our family started attending a non-dem church (going back to church for the first time as adults) 3 years ago, we had never heard of children's church as my husband and I grew up in churches where that wasn't even a thing. Our 5yo son didn't want to leave our side, so he came to the services. Our 7yo son at the time wanted to go, but after a few Sundays in Children's Church, we all realized it would be better for him to join us as well. It really was for the children with behavioral issues. Our children are home-schooled, and very well behaved. We have sat up front for the past 3 years without an issue. Now, our boys are beginning to listen to the sermons and ask questions. They see their parents worshiping, dancing, singing, praising, praying. It has been an important piece to their spiritual maturity. I have been encouraging others to bring theirs to church too. Unfortunately, our church hasn't been particularly encouraging...
I completely agree with everything you said!!! Many, many parents have traded teaching and training for appeasing and entertaining while worshipping God. It is detrimental for the children, and I believe, it’s one of the reasons we are losing a lot of them when they reach adulthood. Unfortunately, our congregation has “children’s church “ and it takes not only a majority of the children out, but a lot of adults and teenagers too.
We raised 3 children and had family devotionals at home where they learned about how to be respectful and participate in worship, talked each time we were heading to the church building that we were going to worship God, and all they took inside were their own Bibles. No toys, no snacks. Expectations have changed dramatically! Even the families that don’t participate in “children’s church “ bring backpacks full of activities to keep the children occupied. It grieves me because all they are learning when they go to worship, is it’s another place to play (just “quietly “).
It really is about expectations. Many people seem to think that expectations are unloving and unfair, when really that's the only way to help people grow. And that goes for the parents and the kids both.
This is all about discipline and instruction. If children are given those two things in conjunction with sitting in a pew then all the better. Most of the time, what I see is, the coloring books, the snacks, etc. broken out to manage the situation. I'm not familiar with children's church. It would be interesting if there was an option for room with a window into the auditorium for children to observe and be taught about worship. Parents should have the option to use these to help.if needed. All children are not created with the same temperament. I feel for a family with three small children where I recently attended. The wife spent many trips up and down the isle with them. But they can also provide some humor at times. One child at a congregation that I used to attend was on his 2nd trip down the isle for some behavioral correction. Not going willingly and knowing what to expect outside, he desperately called out in a loud voice " Help me...Church" Still cracks me up to this day.
Some churches (mostly small ones in my experience) had "cry rooms" for that very purpose. Mostly you used to be taught to behave in church because we were there to worship God. If I didn't, I can still feel my mother's glare from the choir loft to tell me "you better shape up!" Now we are too worried about Susie's self esteem. These children don't learn manners, consequences for their actions and being thoughtful and considerate of others. I have tried to encourage the idea that children 1st grade and up stay for the rest of the worship service instead of having 6th grade and down going to "Children's Church." Last Sunday was the first real attempt for a special service we were having. Result - not one family with children attended the service. Coincidence? Possibly. Statistically that all would not be there on the same Sunday? Doubtful.
I completely agree also as someone who has spent over 40 years in church music ministry. Children's Church has been and still is a babysitting service. Current church's families don't even bring their children to Sunday School now because "we get the same thing at Children's Church." (Of multiple reasons PCUSA is dying outside their entire woke agenda and takeover.) Most families don't show up unless little Johnny is going to be up front doing something.
I stopped doing extra work with the children because parents let anything and EVERYTHING come before church (including a scout camping trip on Palm Sunday when they were supposed to sing). I debated this because it ultimately isn't the children's fault. It is the parent's fault. But you have to remember, these are the kids that grew up in the time of "It Takes a Village," "don't hurt your child's self esteem,) the growth of divorces within the church and sports creeping in on Sundays and Wednesdays until they took that over too. Parents have taught their children that worshipping at the altar of sports is the most important. It breaks my heart to see it.
I predicted it starting in 1995 and I so wanted to be wrong (you have to also remember that is when the "seeker sensitive" and "purpose driven" drivel were really beginning to take off too. We dumbed down our churches (I still have Marva Dawn's book "Reaching Out without Dumbing Down" written in 1995.) and let Satan come right in the church's front door. I really wanted to be wrong and the attacks I endured for saying so to be proven wrong. Sadly, I have been right. But that is Satan's plan right up to the lockdowns, isn't it? The question was asked in the Bible when Jesus returns would he even find a remnant. Well.................................
Some excellent insights, brother Jack. I have two good friends who worship where there is "children's church." They don't like it, but it's been entrenched for years. Another thought. What about the adults who are tending to these kids in "children's church?" They miss out. In fact, can we even say they were in the assembly? Hmmm?
It is sad how many people are perfectly fine with letting others miss service to give them a more optimized experience.
Excellent article. I always think about one of my dad's arguments against "children's church." "Should we appoint children's elders?" I can't tell you how many times I've observed little boys standing on the pew, mimicking the motions of the song leader they watched during worship. They can only say a few words, but learn in a lot of ways that people seem to ignore.
They pick up so much, it's true. Such a missed opportunity when they aren't in there to see it.
And become future ministers or church musician. I was that child who watch EVERYTHING that went on musically. I started playing to sing our little Sunday School song and the rest over 50 years later is history :0)
#4 is the tipping point. I went to a church where kids stayed in the service, the pastor stated from the pulpit they do this intentionally for the reasons you map out here, then proceeded to tell parents to train their children to be still and quiet. He even pointed out the doors where they can slip out to an adjacent hallway if needed. Then during the sermon, kids were literally running laps up and down the back pathway in the sanctuary and not a parent lifted a finger. It was beyond frustrating. If the Church goes this route, actively shepherd parents to shepherd their kids in this
So even after he said that, the parents still allowed it? Wow.
Thank you for this RARE balanced take on children in church. Many of those who advocate for children in church (as I do) think the rest should take as a blessing all sorts of noise, disrespect, etc.
I wholeheartedly agree that, while we should not expect children to be silent in church, they should not be allowed to be a constant distraction. My small parish often has about a half dozen babies in the sanctuary, and the parents (and pious children) do an excellent job of that most services. It can be done!
Years ago, we managed with six children.
Back when our oldest was little (better than 30 years ago), we attended a congregation that pulled the kids out separate from the adults. When she got a little older, we still had to teach her to be quiet and behave during services. Still the same process just delayed by a couple of years. It would have been just as easy to do so from the beginning.
Today, being "back home", our little congregation pulls the kids to the front just before the sermon for a 10 minute kids lesson, (we adults listen as well), then back to sit with family.
Interesting thought. I am in a grandmother role and 2 of my grandchildren live with me- their mom also lives with us but she often works on Sundays. Our very small church has been offering Children’s church only during the sermon- kids are with families the rest of the time. We have a difficult time finding people to do it but I wonder if we are missing something.
It’s a challenge for sure. We are currently offering children’s church for ages 5 and up- one teacher, one class. We are a beach area so, our numbers go way up in the summer but we will have anywhere from 0 - 5 kids (unless there’s a holiday) during the rest of the year. I did it for a while but prefer to sit in the sanctuary for the sermon.
I do believe part of the issue everywhere is parents taking more responsibility for their children’s behavior in general. And as a retired teacher, I am well aware of the many reasons why it doesn’t work for some kids and their families.
Maybe instead of offering Children’s church, it’s offering parents a place to take their kids and parents stay with their children in that space until the child is ready to come back to the service.
One thing that I thought was absolutely lovely at a previous church I attended was some rocking chairs set up outside of the sanctuary with audio so parents especially with those with babies could rock their children and still hear the service.
Maybe suggest having the 1st graders and up stay and participate in worship along with their families. That is the other side of the issue though with CC workers. My church has a group of people who plan a lesson and actually do something. Sadly most don't and people don't want to be out of the service to babysit.
What's really needed at the root of this discussion (like most discussions about ecclesiological matters these days) is better faith discussion and less assumptions about the "other side" of the opinion.
The pro-children's church side, for the most part, wants their kids to know the Bible. And they recognize that the methods we use in churches today (a lecture/sermon) is not an effective means for most kids to truly learn the Scriptures. I generally don't understand how it could be construed as a bad thing to teach kids at their age-appropriate level. If you feel that is more effectively done with the kids in the pew next to you, great! I would pray God blesses that!
But I wish the discussion would have more grace and less arrogance. Go look at the responses Luke received on that post. The post wasn't great... but the absolute Christ-lessness of many of those responses doesn't inspire any confidence that the "we teach our kids the Bible at home" and the "Children's Church will just make your kids apostasize" crowd is really doing anything effective... the Word of God clearly hasn't made an impact on their own behavior.
I suppose this is the beauty of the Restoration Movement: each congregation gets to operate under their own Biblical conscience and we get to mind our business.
But to quote a 19th Century novel: "The Puritans idea of hell is a place where everyone has to mind their own business.”
"The pro-children's church side, for the most part, wants their kids to know the Bible." That was always what Sunday School was about where all members of the family went to their age appropriate class and then join back together for corporate worship.
"It would be easy for them and for us to just send them away. But that’s trading long term habit building for short term convenience." So true. That concept is where milennials on down have sprouted from.
Thanks for posting this article, I have really enjoyed reading the comments and what others have had to say on this topic!
The church I grew up in had children's church. aka "Bible Hour." There was puppets and a robot that spit out memory verses on a strip of paper! It was cool, but even back then, I knew it was to keep the kids like me entertained. They stopped having it when I was in 7th grade. Looking back, I was glad it went away because the teenagers had to help in there. and I wanted to hear the lessons from the preacher, and the kids need to too, even if they were little.
I love the example you brought up from the Old Testament, where everyone stood and listened the word of God, not separating young ones from their parents.
But to change direction a little (and I say this in love, ok?) and just to look at the big picture here, we can praise God or pray to him or sing to him at anytime and anywhere, right? If God doesn't live in the church building, then we don't need to "GO SOMEWHERE" to thank him or praise him or pray to him. But, I know this is traditionally believed.
But where did we get this idea that we have to go somewhere from? Martin Luther, in his re-forming of the Catholic Mass, said that "Worship is now characterized by two things: thanksgiving and service." But is this what the Bible says?
Sure, we can thank God when we are together, but we can thank him at anytime, anywhere. As for "service", we are to be servants of God and living sacrifices - every day, all the time, not just one hour a week. The phrase "worship service" isn't in the New Testament, but also passed down from Martin Luther's teaching that worship should last an hour and and is a "service".
(and BTW, I know I say this alot, but Romans 12:1 and Hebrews 12:28 which talk about what pleases God, are not talking about worship. They are talking about priestly service as living sacrifices (Rom. 12:1) and serving God generally (Heb. 12:28. ) 1952 was the first year these verses were translated as worship. and there is no Greek or Hebrew word for "worship" anyhow).
So why did the first century church assemble? I know we have long believed it was to praise and worship to God , but again, that's Martin Luther's teaching. And I know we commonly think that worship is what pleases God based on Hebrews 12:28, but that verse says that serving God is what pleases him - worship was added in and replaced that word for serving beginning in 1952 with the RSV Bible.
So what does the Bible say is the reason for assembling??? 1 Cor. 14 tells us repeatedly that it's to edify each other. (and also in 1 Cor. 11 we are instructed to share in the Lord's supper). but primarily the assembly of the church is for each other.
It's not for God, specifically. That's what living our life as living sacrifices is for - for God, that's what pleases him, NOT how we "worship". (as that word "worship" replaces other words like bow down, serve or fear and is not in the original text)
So we can stop being scared that we aren't pleasing God or that God will send fire down on us (as we have unfortunately been misled to believe that's what Hebrews 12:29 teaches) if we are distracted at some moments by our children and their needs for the time we come together.
Coming together is for each other.
I will say this, last month they announced they would be closing Children's Church once a month to allow everyone to attend the service, and that he (our pastor) felt it was important for the children to witness their parents worshiping. I have a feeling the latter wasn't the secondary reason, the first being they couldn't get enough volunteers every Sunday. I will admit, the option of the children's church does get people into our church that wouldn't come because they feel they are not equipped to train their children. So I feel that having the option for under 6yo to leave after music, before the sermon could be an option. I also hope our church, when it builds a larger one (we are currently in a tiny gymnasium), will have a "nursing room" for mom's with babies and toddlers that want to bring their children to church, but need to step out for various reasons. We had that room at my church growing up. It was adjacent to the sanctuary. It was called the "parlor room". I thought it was the loveliest room in the whole church. It even had a television to watch the sermon. It was for women and children only during church. It was also used as a sitting room for funerals. Anyway, I do think that its not a black and white issue. There do need to be options. But I do agree with the sentiment that 6yo have the capability and necessity to be in church. But being trained by their parents, and not being allowed to misbehave in church and be a distraction. We have to start teaching church etiquette to our children. Unfortunately, most adults don't know church etiquette themselves. Another topic?
"the option of the children's church does get people into our church that wouldn't come because they feel they are not equipped to train their children"
I think this is the bigger crux of the matter: while yes, the ideal should be that a parent teaches their own kids the Bible at home, we have to understand that's not the reality.
Think about a family that walks into church for the first time. The parents haven't been to church since they were kids. Their kids have never been... they don't really know much about church, the Bible, etc., but they feel led to go to church. That family isn't reading the Bible at home. At least not yet. There is no foundation for their kids. Their kids know nothing about the Bible at all...
But the church's expectation is simply: "well, your kids should be watching you worship!" Uhh, the parents don't even know what that means... how can it be modeled to the kids???
Children's ministry can (and should) be for the purpose of evangelism. It can (and should) be for the purpose of our kids knowing Jesus.
***
We talk about the risks of children's ministry: "it's just babysitting" "they aren't understanding what it is to sit in church" "it's just a movie and a snack" (some of those accusations are true, most of the time, they aren't)... but we don't talk about any of the risks of not having them:
-Kids can sit in church, observe their parents worshipping, hear the prayers, sing the songs, observe the sacraments... but have genuinely no understanding WHY it's happening.
-Kids can know every part of the church, but little about Jesus.
-Kids can know what it means to hear a sermon, but not pick up on a single thing.
We have to understand the risks to both sides. And we have to be gracious about it. We have to understand that not every person who darkens the door of a church is at the same point in their faith or their family's faith.
We can acknowledge that people might not walk in ready to teach their family the faith without solving it with a band-aid. Long-term, they and the kids are far better off if churches invest in teaching them how to raise faithful families rather than trying to do it for them.
"rather than trying to do it for them."
I suppose if you choose to minimize children's church to a "substitute", you might come to this conclusion. I reject that idea altogether. I see children's church as a *resource* for families to raise their kids in the faith.
I'll use this example: our church sits next to a school that has free lunches every day during the summer. Most of the kids who receive them are from food-scarce homes. Is it good, long-term, for those kids to rely on those meals? No. Of course not... it's one meal a day. But I'd fear what happens without them, as well.
Those meals are an important resource for those kids who wouldn't otherwise have food at home.
We can both teach parents how to raise faithful families and, at the same time, provide them resources and starting points to ensure that their kids are getting SOMETHING.
There’s the big difference. The government really can’t be expected to get those parents to be better providers. The church not only can be expected to help equip parents to raise Christianst—it must do so.
Again, this is a great ideal. And one I agree with.
But in the real world (where I pastor) that's not how it always works. So the question remains: for the children whose parents have fully abdicated their Christian responsibility to lead their kids in the faith, where does the church come into play? Do we? Or do we just let the kids continue on their path toward hell because they have crappy parents?
There's the issue, once again. It has been done up until 1970. It is still currently done in many places. And yet the advocates of children's church act as if it's a choice between dividing the worship and losing our kids to hell.
I would counter once again that our dropout rate has STEEPLY increased since we started doing things like children's church.
You are equating poor parenting and children not being fed to children's church? Wow. that's a stretch.
Long-term, sure. I think I'd agree. But I suppose one of the frustrating parts about this discussion is that while all the "family-integrated worship" dogmatists have no problem making hasty generalizations about children's ministry and sharing all the problems with it, they fully ignored the reality that their side has its challenges, too.
I can give you, anecdotally, over a dozen cases of kids from churches that lacked a children's ministry who fully walked away from church. They were in church with mom and dad every Sunday. They watched their parents worship... they knew the prayers. They were worshipping, but none of it stuck, because at no point in time did they ever fully understand *why*. They never understood the connection of the worship back to the Word. It was pure routine for them. Frankly, that's not any better than giving kids Teddy Grahams and putting on 321 Penguins in a separate room.
The long-term solution is to teach your kids the Bible at home. Worship at home. Pray at home.
If you're doing that, sending the kids to children's ministry will be just fine. So will keeping the kids in the service. If you're not, it won't matter which side of the debate you fall on.
And, long-term should be our outlook on all of these things. That's not a drawback, just something that needs to be acknowledged.
Just in my experience, the people who don't send their kids to children's ministry when it's available are usually the ones who have the Bible open at home.
So I guess the question must be asked: what about the kids whose parents don't teach the Bible at home? What do we do about that as the church? Just say to the kids, "sorry that your parents suck at their responsibility... no Bible for you!"??
One of the greater challenges to this discussion is that it operates under the ideals. But we don't pastor an ideal world... we pastor a real world, and we have to consider the real world issues.
If your kid doesn't need children's church, great! Praise God! I'd argue it isn't for your kid. But many kids come to church and they live in households where their parents aren't doing jack squat in terms of raising them in the faith.
Refusing to provide anything for those kids, in my opinion, is the definition of hindering them.
It's still just a bandaid, and bandaids usually keep us from investing in bigger solutions.
The youth dropout rate soaring in the era of youth groups and children's church isn't a coincidence. When the church grabs some of the responsibility, the parents step back.
Well, gosh darn, how we all survived and grew into Biblically based Christians is just mindboggling. I have been in church ministry for over 40 years in almost every mainline denomination and watch this movement grow into what it is now. My church at least has a lesson in their children's church, but when parents don't come to church when we are having a worship service where we want the family to worship together. Parents have stopped bringing their children to Sunday School because "well, they get the same thing at Children's Church." And I guess I was just dumb to sit in church and paying attention to everything and we LEARNED what worship was about. There used to be something called Biblical instruction in Sunday School, in other church ministries (choir) and at home. Parents have become lazy and grew up in the "entertain me in church" culture that derived from the seeker-sensitive, purpose driven attack on the American Church. You can try to argue it away, but the facts are the facts.
Last fall, our pastor had an outburst in the middle of the sermon about a baby that was babbling. Truly sweet baby noises. Not at all distracting. Not to anyone but him. He suggested anyone with children should "utilize the children's ministry". I was flabbergasted! I was crying before I could get out of the building. My heart broke for the woman with the baby. I didn't see her. But she could have been a new mother. Maybe young. Maybe brand new to the church. Maybe struggling with motherhood. Maybe even mental health. My God! I was furious for her. The next Sunday, I only wrote on the comment card, "Mark 10:14". I imagine I could not have possibly been the only one that was hurt by his remarks. The following Sunday (2 weeks later) he gave a half-hearted apology to the congregation. Blaming his "ADHD" and said he gets distracted easily. What? You're a pastor! Nonetheless, I prayed diligently for him. Every Sunday, when I hear a baby cry or a toddler talking, I pray hard for him to stay focused and for God to give him a heart of love for the children. I told my husband, I don't think he spends much time with children (even though he has 3 of his own). I don't think he spends a lot of quality time with his own. They are not at all behaved themselves. He even jokes often in his sermons about their bad behavior...
I've hesitated to say anything because I wasn't there. However you did just write badly about your pastor in public, so I will defend him.
Persistent non-stop babbling can wear out someone trying to hear a sermon or other address. What may be sweet baby noises to you and others may cause someone to struggle to understand a sermon. I am one of those who have a lot of trouble blocking out background noise to understand the human voice. An occasional noise here and there is not a problem. And I rejoice that my parish is having a baby boom. When it is non-stop and not all that quiet, it is an exhausting problem. It happens rarely at my church, but it did last Sunday.
Again, I wasn't there at your church. But I have trouble believing a pastor would stop a sermon over just "sweet baby noises."
I understand a congregant being distracted, but a pastor who can’t preach through a baby crying needs to work on their public speaking skills.
Can you imagine the distractions Jesus dealt with?
Did you read the part where he apologized to the congregation? It was a bad look for any pastor and he knew it or he felt pressured to apologize. He was very rude and singled out a family. It did not come from gentleness and love. He mentioned that in his apology. Not only that, he has since reversed course and is making an attempt to change. There are all kinds of distractions. Pastors have to roll with it. And he is doing much better. We love our pastor very much. We're routing for him. And always praying for him.
Our family started attending a non-dem church (going back to church for the first time as adults) 3 years ago, we had never heard of children's church as my husband and I grew up in churches where that wasn't even a thing. Our 5yo son didn't want to leave our side, so he came to the services. Our 7yo son at the time wanted to go, but after a few Sundays in Children's Church, we all realized it would be better for him to join us as well. It really was for the children with behavioral issues. Our children are home-schooled, and very well behaved. We have sat up front for the past 3 years without an issue. Now, our boys are beginning to listen to the sermons and ask questions. They see their parents worshiping, dancing, singing, praising, praying. It has been an important piece to their spiritual maturity. I have been encouraging others to bring theirs to church too. Unfortunately, our church hasn't been particularly encouraging...