The first indwelling of individuals by the Holy Spirit gives us the biblical “standard” concerning the “Church” (i.e., the Assembly or Ekklesia):
The operative phrase: “…and one sat upon each of them.”
“Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.” —Acts 2:3-4
Well, Max Lucado figured it out. And he is speaking in tongues more and more...
On a more serious note...
A passage seemingly "forgotten" in this conversation amongst us - Paul's description of the fruitS of the Spirit. How are those growing in our life? Speaking in tongues (Sorry, Max) is not what matters. It was there for a specific need. But peace, joy, love... They show in our character. Speaking in tongues was an obstacle for development of what is truly important: How "proficient" do we "speak" fruits of the Spirit??
I go along with the 2nd option myself. I believe the Holy Spirit lives in us and works in us as well as comforts us. He sends our prayers to God when we don't know what to say. That is the gift we receive in Baptism.
For those who have told me that the Spirit does not dwell in us, I always ask, Then what does Peter mean in Acts 2:38, 39 when he says you receive the gift of the Holy Spirit at baptism and the promises is for also those who are far off. And what about I Corinthians 3:16 and 6:19? When Jesus promised the Comforter, was that just for the Apostles?
Rom 6:10-11 The same Spirit of God (Holy Spirit) Who raised Jesus will raise us in the last day. Is that not miraculous? A different miraculous measure than the first century, but none the less miraculous.
Acts 2:39-“For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far away, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.” I believe it a plain teaching.
I try not to read into the text more than is there. Based on what you said, then every Christian had miraculous powers. Secondly, we could say that the entire New Testament was not written for anyone beyond the first century. And my unanswered question by all who I have asked, why would baptism be to all but the Holy Spirit be limited?
Let me be clear, I do not believe we have miraculous powers today. I do believe that we cannot live in the Spirit if we do not possess Him.
The purpose of signs and miracles were to prove the word. If we do not receive the Holy Spirit at baptism, then when? There is no other reference in scripture that refutes Acts 2:38. The indwelling of the Spirit and the gifts of the Spirit are two different things. All Christians have the indwelling of the Spirit, otherwise, how would we grow in the fruits of the Spirit?
(1) Maybe it’s an agree-to-disagree matter because the evidence isn’t sufficient to draw a dogmatic conclusion?
(2) Or maybe it is clear enough, but our tradition and brotherhood peer pressure has kept the first view prominently featured for fear of where the other view would lead some?
(3) Finally, the fact that I only know about my own spirit via revelation and have no idea really how it indwells this earthly tent makes me confident I’ll never fully grasp the indwelling of God’s Spirit outside the secrets the Lord has revealed via Scripture. But those secrets do belong to us & we should not fear to believe & proclaim them (Deut 29:29) with an attitude of love & longsuffring.
From what I have experienced lately, that brotherhood peer pressure only comes from a certain branch of the church. It is much like the congregation I was baptized in said we were not supposed to say that we know that we are saved, regardless of I John 5:13.
I'm so glad to see this topic discussed more. I'm quickly approaching my Master's thesis and this is the very topic I plan to research and address because it has been avoided for many years. Thank you, Jack, for your persistence on this matter.
I have always wondered the same about other issues like - 1) long hair on men and short hair on women, and 2) the issue of how far we must serve our country (the military) does God endorse nationalism?
The Bible teaches that the Spirit dwells in us. I think Acts 2:38 is clear. Honestly, I have been a Christian for 34 years and preaching for 30 and just this year came across somebody who said that the Spirit does not dwell in us. Another question that saying the Spirit is not in us raises is, if I do not possess the Spirit, then how do I develop the fruits of the Spirit?
I understand there is a spectrum of beliefs on that side of the issue. I have looked into it to a degree but I know I haven't covered the full spectrum, so I'll ask you to help me understand your perspective:
when it comes to behavior, does the baptized believer who has memorized Scriptures have any advantage over the atheist who has memorized the same Scriptures? And if so, how.
Plenty of nonbelievers think Jesus was a good moral teacher. So if they take a list like the fruit of the Spirit and decide that’s the kind of person they want to be, will they end up morally equivalent to the Christian?
“That good thing which was committed to you, keep by the Holy Spirit who dwells in us.”
II Timothy 1:14
Pretty clear.
I agree
I have heard this also explained as the Holy Spirit who dwells in the congregation, not just the individual.
The first indwelling of individuals by the Holy Spirit gives us the biblical “standard” concerning the “Church” (i.e., the Assembly or Ekklesia):
The operative phrase: “…and one sat upon each of them.”
“Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.” —Acts 2:3-4
This event was collectively individual.
I have heard it explained that the "indwelling" today is in the congregation and not just the individual.
Well, Max Lucado figured it out. And he is speaking in tongues more and more...
On a more serious note...
A passage seemingly "forgotten" in this conversation amongst us - Paul's description of the fruitS of the Spirit. How are those growing in our life? Speaking in tongues (Sorry, Max) is not what matters. It was there for a specific need. But peace, joy, love... They show in our character. Speaking in tongues was an obstacle for development of what is truly important: How "proficient" do we "speak" fruits of the Spirit??
I go along with the 2nd option myself. I believe the Holy Spirit lives in us and works in us as well as comforts us. He sends our prayers to God when we don't know what to say. That is the gift we receive in Baptism.
For those who have told me that the Spirit does not dwell in us, I always ask, Then what does Peter mean in Acts 2:38, 39 when he says you receive the gift of the Holy Spirit at baptism and the promises is for also those who are far off. And what about I Corinthians 3:16 and 6:19? When Jesus promised the Comforter, was that just for the Apostles?
As I understand it, they would say that the gift was either miraculous power, or salvation.
Rom 6:10-11 The same Spirit of God (Holy Spirit) Who raised Jesus will raise us in the last day. Is that not miraculous? A different miraculous measure than the first century, but none the less miraculous.
I believe Acts 5:32 and Ephesians 1:13-14 creates great difficulty for that answer.
Acts 2:39-“For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far away, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.” I believe it a plain teaching.
I try not to read into the text more than is there. Based on what you said, then every Christian had miraculous powers. Secondly, we could say that the entire New Testament was not written for anyone beyond the first century. And my unanswered question by all who I have asked, why would baptism be to all but the Holy Spirit be limited?
Let me be clear, I do not believe we have miraculous powers today. I do believe that we cannot live in the Spirit if we do not possess Him.
The purpose of signs and miracles were to prove the word. If we do not receive the Holy Spirit at baptism, then when? There is no other reference in scripture that refutes Acts 2:38. The indwelling of the Spirit and the gifts of the Spirit are two different things. All Christians have the indwelling of the Spirit, otherwise, how would we grow in the fruits of the Spirit?
I was always taught and understood it to be #2. I never heard #1 until we moved to NC and I struggle with that concept.
It does seem to be regional in many cases. It's my hope that it will shift as generational change happens.
Good thoughts.
(1) Maybe it’s an agree-to-disagree matter because the evidence isn’t sufficient to draw a dogmatic conclusion?
(2) Or maybe it is clear enough, but our tradition and brotherhood peer pressure has kept the first view prominently featured for fear of where the other view would lead some?
(3) Finally, the fact that I only know about my own spirit via revelation and have no idea really how it indwells this earthly tent makes me confident I’ll never fully grasp the indwelling of God’s Spirit outside the secrets the Lord has revealed via Scripture. But those secrets do belong to us & we should not fear to believe & proclaim them (Deut 29:29) with an attitude of love & longsuffring.
Grace & peace.
From what I have experienced lately, that brotherhood peer pressure only comes from a certain branch of the church. It is much like the congregation I was baptized in said we were not supposed to say that we know that we are saved, regardless of I John 5:13.
I'm so glad to see this topic discussed more. I'm quickly approaching my Master's thesis and this is the very topic I plan to research and address because it has been avoided for many years. Thank you, Jack, for your persistence on this matter.
I have always wondered the same about other issues like - 1) long hair on men and short hair on women, and 2) the issue of how far we must serve our country (the military) does God endorse nationalism?
I'm here for the ratio.
LOL... no, seriously. I'd like to hear from some CoC folks on this.
The Bible teaches that the Spirit dwells in us. I think Acts 2:38 is clear. Honestly, I have been a Christian for 34 years and preaching for 30 and just this year came across somebody who said that the Spirit does not dwell in us. Another question that saying the Spirit is not in us raises is, if I do not possess the Spirit, then how do I develop the fruits of the Spirit?
That’s the worst part - they believe the fruit of the Spirit are obtained through try-hard obedience.
I understand there is a spectrum of beliefs on that side of the issue. I have looked into it to a degree but I know I haven't covered the full spectrum, so I'll ask you to help me understand your perspective:
when it comes to behavior, does the baptized believer who has memorized Scriptures have any advantage over the atheist who has memorized the same Scriptures? And if so, how.
Plenty of nonbelievers think Jesus was a good moral teacher. So if they take a list like the fruit of the Spirit and decide that’s the kind of person they want to be, will they end up morally equivalent to the Christian?
Paul also says a few chapters later in 1 Thess. 4:8 that the Spirit lives IN the believer.