First, God has always had timing for when things would happen. Such as when Jesus had started his ministry and his mother wanted Him to turn water into wine. He told her that His time had not yet come. The disciples were also kept from understanding some things until it was time for Jesus full ministry and crucifixion.
So, it wouldn’t seem odd at all for God to have a waiting place till the biggest day of all days, the Judgment. The time for Judgment has not come yet, just like Jesus timing was to be perfect and had to go thru a process while he was on earth.
Next, we seem to be relying on basically one to three scriptures of Paul’s writings. As a Bible student, I have been taught that if we are relying on just one or a couple scriptures to prove the point and it doesnt line up with the rest of the Bible, my view is probably off.
There really isnt a way to have alot of the Bible that mentions paradise, hades, heaven and gehenna, etc line up with Paul’s view as it is being understood here.
So the view could be off. Maybe we just need to understand what Paul is perhaps saying?
We assume that he is saying absent from the body is immediately at home with the Lord.
If I am wanting to go to my home that I grew up in, I might say….I want be absent from here and be at my home (where I grew up). But it is far away and I know I will have to stay overnight somewhere and travel again the next day to get there.
So even though I say I long to be absent from here and go home, I realize it is not immediate.
I believe that is akin to Paul saying he longs to be absent from the body and at home with the Lord. That is the ultimate place he longs for. I would say the same thing even though I know I have to wait in Paradise. There would be no reason for him to say he longs to be in Paradise(the waiting place). Even though God’s planning and timing is that we wait in Paradise(or Tartarus for the unfaithful/unsaved), we certainly long for our ultimate home in Heaven.
Lastly, I don’t see a verse anywhere indicating there has been a change in the plan God laid out from the beginning. All have gone to Paradise or Tartarus as indicated in scripture before Christ came to earth. So to say we are doing anything different would both rely on perhaps a misunderstanding of Pauls scriptures and we would be going beyond scripture. Revelation highlights we are not to add or subtract.
A good book to read is Where the Dead Go by Eric Richardson, Keller church of Christ, Keller, TX
If the lack of verses on going to heaven disqualifies the view, how much more the concept of Paradise/Abraham's bosom? We're not even really told they're the same place, we've just connected the dots.
The idea that there has been a change is that Jesus' death materially affected the status of all who came before Him whose sins had been forgiven but not taken away. If they remain walled off from God, then the death did not have any immediate efficacy for their "rolled forward" sins.
Judgement when take last breath on earth, final judgement for all those remaining on earth? Farther along we will know and understand. Thanks for sharing your thoughts based on God’s Word.
1 Cor5:10 We must all appear before the judgement seat of Christ to give account. It makes no sense that we go directly to Heaven for then what purpose is the judgement? In one sense we are judged in that we go to Paradise or to torment in hades. But this is not the final judgement. But only a place of waiting with a fully functional memory. Paul said concerning the dead that Jesus would bring them with Him. I expect Paul to recieve a far greater reward than me. Again what purpose is the Judgement unless judgement will happen?
To answer your poll as to where we go when we die....
Many years ago, I noticed that the Tree of Life had moved from the Garden of Eden (Genesis 3:22-24) to heaven, per Revelation 22:1-2.
So why is it in heaven instead of paradise?
Many proclaim that, when we die, we go to paradise. Well, that is what we read about at the cross with Jesus and one of the thieves. Traditionally, we say that those in Paradise await the Day of Judgment.
But what about Paul who said when he died, he would see Jesus, No mention of Abraham.
Romans 6:6-7, 2 Timothy 2:26, etc. speak of being freed from Satan's spiritual prison of sin. Romans 8:1 says Jesus freed of from the condemnation of the Law which identified sin. Luke 4:18 quotes Isaiah 61:1, saying Jesus came “...to proclaim liberty to the captives and freedom to the prisoners.”
And consider this regarding Day Atonement under the Law of Moses: Atonement does not mean forgiveness. The Hebrew word is to "cover up". Remember, the Ark 's lid was called the Atonement Cover (Exodus 25). Hebrews 10:4 says it was impossible for the blood of sacrifices made under the Old Law to forgive sins. This means that even the great godly people in the O.T. still had their sins when Jesus was born. Huh?
But now we find Ephesians 4:8-10 where Jesus led in his train (KJV) a host of captives and gave gifts to men. Who were the captives? Hebrews 9:15 says that the benefits of Jesus' death were retroactive to those who sinned under the old Law of Moses. Romans 3:23-26 says Jesus gave the gift of sinlessness, even to those who had sinned previous to his death.
Where did he go with the captives? Back to Ephesians 4:8-10, he ascended far above all the heavens. And, back to Revelation 22:1-2, along with them he figuratively brought the Tree of Life to heaven.
Here is one more reassurance that Jesus' death was retroactive to saints who lived before his death: Revelation 14 symbolically lists 12,000 from each of the Tribes of Israel being saved (any multiple of 10 always meant all-inclusiveness).
So, what about the Day of Judgment? When we leave this earth at death, it seems we enter a realm of timelessness (Revelation 10:6 KJV and II Peter 3:8).
My conclusion is that, AT JESUS' RESURRECTION (therefore, after his death), Jesus led the justified out of paradise and brought them and the tree of life to heaven. Therefore, that "waiting place" no longer exists and at my death I will see HIM face to face.
It is important to note two things:
First, God has always had timing for when things would happen. Such as when Jesus had started his ministry and his mother wanted Him to turn water into wine. He told her that His time had not yet come. The disciples were also kept from understanding some things until it was time for Jesus full ministry and crucifixion.
So, it wouldn’t seem odd at all for God to have a waiting place till the biggest day of all days, the Judgment. The time for Judgment has not come yet, just like Jesus timing was to be perfect and had to go thru a process while he was on earth.
Next, we seem to be relying on basically one to three scriptures of Paul’s writings. As a Bible student, I have been taught that if we are relying on just one or a couple scriptures to prove the point and it doesnt line up with the rest of the Bible, my view is probably off.
There really isnt a way to have alot of the Bible that mentions paradise, hades, heaven and gehenna, etc line up with Paul’s view as it is being understood here.
So the view could be off. Maybe we just need to understand what Paul is perhaps saying?
We assume that he is saying absent from the body is immediately at home with the Lord.
If I am wanting to go to my home that I grew up in, I might say….I want be absent from here and be at my home (where I grew up). But it is far away and I know I will have to stay overnight somewhere and travel again the next day to get there.
So even though I say I long to be absent from here and go home, I realize it is not immediate.
I believe that is akin to Paul saying he longs to be absent from the body and at home with the Lord. That is the ultimate place he longs for. I would say the same thing even though I know I have to wait in Paradise. There would be no reason for him to say he longs to be in Paradise(the waiting place). Even though God’s planning and timing is that we wait in Paradise(or Tartarus for the unfaithful/unsaved), we certainly long for our ultimate home in Heaven.
Lastly, I don’t see a verse anywhere indicating there has been a change in the plan God laid out from the beginning. All have gone to Paradise or Tartarus as indicated in scripture before Christ came to earth. So to say we are doing anything different would both rely on perhaps a misunderstanding of Pauls scriptures and we would be going beyond scripture. Revelation highlights we are not to add or subtract.
A good book to read is Where the Dead Go by Eric Richardson, Keller church of Christ, Keller, TX
Available on Amazon
If the lack of verses on going to heaven disqualifies the view, how much more the concept of Paradise/Abraham's bosom? We're not even really told they're the same place, we've just connected the dots.
The idea that there has been a change is that Jesus' death materially affected the status of all who came before Him whose sins had been forgiven but not taken away. If they remain walled off from God, then the death did not have any immediate efficacy for their "rolled forward" sins.
Judgement when take last breath on earth, final judgement for all those remaining on earth? Farther along we will know and understand. Thanks for sharing your thoughts based on God’s Word.
1 Cor5:10 We must all appear before the judgement seat of Christ to give account. It makes no sense that we go directly to Heaven for then what purpose is the judgement? In one sense we are judged in that we go to Paradise or to torment in hades. But this is not the final judgement. But only a place of waiting with a fully functional memory. Paul said concerning the dead that Jesus would bring them with Him. I expect Paul to recieve a far greater reward than me. Again what purpose is the Judgement unless judgement will happen?
Well, as you said, paradise and torment are also a pre-judgment. But as I argue in the episode, we have judgment in this life too.
Absolutely true!
To answer your poll as to where we go when we die....
Many years ago, I noticed that the Tree of Life had moved from the Garden of Eden (Genesis 3:22-24) to heaven, per Revelation 22:1-2.
So why is it in heaven instead of paradise?
Many proclaim that, when we die, we go to paradise. Well, that is what we read about at the cross with Jesus and one of the thieves. Traditionally, we say that those in Paradise await the Day of Judgment.
But what about Paul who said when he died, he would see Jesus, No mention of Abraham.
Romans 6:6-7, 2 Timothy 2:26, etc. speak of being freed from Satan's spiritual prison of sin. Romans 8:1 says Jesus freed of from the condemnation of the Law which identified sin. Luke 4:18 quotes Isaiah 61:1, saying Jesus came “...to proclaim liberty to the captives and freedom to the prisoners.”
And consider this regarding Day Atonement under the Law of Moses: Atonement does not mean forgiveness. The Hebrew word is to "cover up". Remember, the Ark 's lid was called the Atonement Cover (Exodus 25). Hebrews 10:4 says it was impossible for the blood of sacrifices made under the Old Law to forgive sins. This means that even the great godly people in the O.T. still had their sins when Jesus was born. Huh?
But now we find Ephesians 4:8-10 where Jesus led in his train (KJV) a host of captives and gave gifts to men. Who were the captives? Hebrews 9:15 says that the benefits of Jesus' death were retroactive to those who sinned under the old Law of Moses. Romans 3:23-26 says Jesus gave the gift of sinlessness, even to those who had sinned previous to his death.
Where did he go with the captives? Back to Ephesians 4:8-10, he ascended far above all the heavens. And, back to Revelation 22:1-2, along with them he figuratively brought the Tree of Life to heaven.
Here is one more reassurance that Jesus' death was retroactive to saints who lived before his death: Revelation 14 symbolically lists 12,000 from each of the Tribes of Israel being saved (any multiple of 10 always meant all-inclusiveness).
So, what about the Day of Judgment? When we leave this earth at death, it seems we enter a realm of timelessness (Revelation 10:6 KJV and II Peter 3:8).
My conclusion is that, AT JESUS' RESURRECTION (therefore, after his death), Jesus led the justified out of paradise and brought them and the tree of life to heaven. Therefore, that "waiting place" no longer exists and at my death I will see HIM face to face.