If there is an opportunity, we must become very, very seriousβ¦ We must read seriously. We must be up to the task. Lord help usβ¦
We must address our own absurd historyβfrom the outside, it just looks like a group splintering into little factions over and over. This is very damning in a sense. Itβs frustrating from within as well.
All of this is so excitingβ¦ Say what you will about social media, but SO MANY can be reachedβ¦ the fields are indeed white onto harvest and my sisters and I are praying for more and more workersβ¦ πππβοΈβοΈβοΈππ½ππ½ππ½π
I just said a prayer for your upcoming debateβ¦ let us know more about it in the future ππ½ππ½ππ½
βGreet one another with a holy kiss. All the churches of Christ greet you.β
I live in Manhattan KS. The churches that are thriving have 200+ members/attendees. My wife and I have attended a SBC with ten members, a SBC with 20+ members, and a LCMS with 50 members. The big churches are packed. I donβt know why. Maybe itβs easy to get lost in the crowd and no accountability? Just show up and go home and do it again next week? I do not know. I canβt stand the bigger churches. The music is rock concert style. Just canβt do it.
There are a number of elements that people find appealing about big churches, some good, some not as good. Iβm with you, though, I feel the things people go there for are not for me.
I have lots of thoughts about all of this; I may not be able to articulate it well, but Iβll try. I have left the C of C, so when I say β weβ that is based on what I saw and see happening during my time as a member etc .
From my experiences over the last few decades, I can in no way see how the C of C is not in major decline. Recent examples, Skillman Ave and Highland Oaks in Dallas⦠major stalwarts of the past, now defunct or taken over to survive.
And the ones that are flourishing are ones that changed their names, like The Branch or The Hills.
This must tell us something.
What it tells me is that the younger demographic left⦠and we never questioned why and continue to bury our heads in the sand .
I think the problem became systemic over decades, beginning in the 50βs and 60βsβ¦ we reveled in our quest for β truth β and it evolved into a subtle arrogance, which led to complacency. Baptism became the central tenant of the faith; an intellectual exercise based on scripture; hear, believe, repent, confess, be baptized and your set; be handed a Bible, start attending church and you βre on your way.
Discipleship or sanctification was hardly mentioned.
Baby Boomers continued what they had been raised in, brought their Gen X kids up in it during the 70βs and 80βs and sent to Christian Schools and off to ACU.
But then it all changed; culture changed, institutions like ACU changed, and those kids left the C of C in droves and to this day thousands of those kids either lost their faith or fled for greener pastures of authenticity, relevance, grace and The Holy Spirt; things not embraced or understood, rarely mentioned or taught, deemed controversial or decisive. They wanted more.
And, many who came out of ACU became extremely liberal and scoffed at traditional conservative values.
I digress⦠but what has always struck me funny was the claim of not being a denomination. Yet, the C of C maintained the pattern of denominations with most of the institutional trappings!
Buildings, steeples, stages, pulpits, paid staff, Sunday school, budgets, building programs, the structured order of worship, pulpit minister etc et al ; sure it was autonomous and installed Elders, but in reality, elders became a Board of Directors in charge of the business of the church, and true shepherding took a back seat.
So, as it evolved, folks became comfortable knowing they were operating in β total truthββ¦ the original β first century Christianity β β¦ fully restored . We had it 100% correct and donβt anyone dare to try and question or change it.
The kids saw through it; it became stale and boring and inauthentic⦠they wanted more, so they left.
And heads stay buried in the sand; yet parents are thrilled that their grown kids are still believers and attend church βsomewhereβ.
Some valid observations. Sounds like the Israelites, always wanting βmore,β whatever that is. Foreign gods, idols, kings, strange fire. Could be a combination of weak or worldly leadership, personal temptation and weak faith, ever increasing cultural influence; but in the end God is God, the truth is the truth and the church is the church. Look, create, change, challenge, leave all you want, God is unchanging, so is His Word and His will for us. We have no one to blame but ourselves and no solution than to repent and return to our Heavenly Father (see prodigal Son) and our Savior. Sure, βweβ could do better in a lot of areas -no one or no congregation is perfect, but Christians hearts and minds need to change more than changing the building or the worship style or other so called βreligiousβ things. Many have tried the entertainment and emotion- first ways and felt just as empty and are returning. We are accountable to God. Fulfillment is in Christ (Eph. 1:23), why would we look elsewhere? There is a doctrine to follow (John 7:16-18) and mankind didnβt develop it. Sticking with the basic truth of the word and maturity into the stature of Christ (Ephesians 4:13) should be our goal and that includes evangelism, which is happening but maybe not yet to the degree desired. We should return to it. Thanks and blessings to you and all.
Our congregation in south central Oklahoma has about 130ish members, including a Spanish-language ministry. We have a very solid mix of ages, with several young families and lots of babies. I believe we are very well doctrinally sound and balanced. The future looks bright for us here. Hopeful that this is the case more and more for congregations around the country.
Btwβ¦ in our congregation in Madison, Alabamaβ¦ the demographics match up pretty well with your statisticsβ¦ we have a very good mixtureβ¦ ππ½ππ½ππ½
After my 25 yo read your article, he was ragging me pretty goodβ¦ βWhat is wrong with you Gen Xers?! lol πππ
Is there also some possibility that we might be becoming more relevant to the Gen Z and Millennials because of what happened to Charlie Kirk? Lots of people looking to God right now β¦ π€ππ½ππ½ππ½βοΈβοΈβοΈ
Thanks Jack. I believe our basic foundations are correct: 1) Restore New Testament Christianity and 2) Speak where the Bible speaks. I just believe we became convinced that we had "Restored" NT Christianity at some point in past -- therefore, just needed to hold the fort. We need a far fuller, deeper Restoration of the New Testament churches. Thanks for your good work!
I've been following Ryan Burge too, and our numbers definitely stand out in a good way. I've noticed that the non-denominational and free will Baptist groups tend to be statistically the next best in terms of generational balance. I wonder if that has anything to do with doctrinal similarities, especially congregational autonomy and the lack of man-made creeds.
Also, my firsthand experience matches up with yours and that of the readers you mentioned who have contacted you, as well as the stats.
There is always optimism. Godβs word will not return to him void. Small churches count too and there can be growth there. Preach the word in season out of season with all long suffering. One Lord one faith one baptism. Differences expected but not division . Jesus prayed that we be one in him. Complexities of this life? Sure but nothing that canβt be overcome. The simple truth of the one, true gospel still has the potential to sprout and grow in the right soil/hearts. There are still many deceivers and many who might be corrected and converted and many who might repent and be restored-donβt forget about them.
I actually believe a capella is one of our greatest selling points. Every time people witness it, they're completely enamored. Think Carrie Underwood in the Capitol Rotunda at the Inauguration. Or, this recent example - https://x.com/CreedConfession/status/2023216923992105107
It hasn't been a hurdle for the Eastern Orthodox, either.
But βbad singing β β¦ is not edifyingβ¦ ( to most ) and comes across as a dead church. Plus a song leader can be a huge plus; however, often, the song leader on a mic overpowers the group singing! ( but heβs got to earn his money !π£)
And we are so structured that the songs just END! Usually no Amensβ¦ just an awkward silence β¦ a page number announce and repeat. Thereβs no Segway into the next song β¦ very sterile and cold . Singing to the back of heads, a screen and a song leaderβ¦ someone decided this is how the first century church did it ???
Ephesians 5β¦. Sing and make melody ? β¦ out of context and became doctrineβ¦. Part of the dogma and a salvation issue to so many β¦ what a shame .
If there is an opportunity, we must become very, very seriousβ¦ We must read seriously. We must be up to the task. Lord help usβ¦
We must address our own absurd historyβfrom the outside, it just looks like a group splintering into little factions over and over. This is very damning in a sense. Itβs frustrating from within as well.
Yes, that reputation was established very early on and weβve sadly lived up to it all along.
All of this is so excitingβ¦ Say what you will about social media, but SO MANY can be reachedβ¦ the fields are indeed white onto harvest and my sisters and I are praying for more and more workersβ¦ πππβοΈβοΈβοΈππ½ππ½ππ½π
I just said a prayer for your upcoming debateβ¦ let us know more about it in the future ππ½ππ½ππ½
βGreet one another with a holy kiss. All the churches of Christ greet you.β
ββRomansβ¬ β16β¬:β16β¬ βESVβ¬β¬
https://bible.com/bible/59/rom.16.16.ESV
Thank you! I will post more info soon.
Very good love your work for Christ
Thank you!
I live in Manhattan KS. The churches that are thriving have 200+ members/attendees. My wife and I have attended a SBC with ten members, a SBC with 20+ members, and a LCMS with 50 members. The big churches are packed. I donβt know why. Maybe itβs easy to get lost in the crowd and no accountability? Just show up and go home and do it again next week? I do not know. I canβt stand the bigger churches. The music is rock concert style. Just canβt do it.
There are a number of elements that people find appealing about big churches, some good, some not as good. Iβm with you, though, I feel the things people go there for are not for me.
I have lots of thoughts about all of this; I may not be able to articulate it well, but Iβll try. I have left the C of C, so when I say β weβ that is based on what I saw and see happening during my time as a member etc .
From my experiences over the last few decades, I can in no way see how the C of C is not in major decline. Recent examples, Skillman Ave and Highland Oaks in Dallas⦠major stalwarts of the past, now defunct or taken over to survive.
And the ones that are flourishing are ones that changed their names, like The Branch or The Hills.
This must tell us something.
What it tells me is that the younger demographic left⦠and we never questioned why and continue to bury our heads in the sand .
I think the problem became systemic over decades, beginning in the 50βs and 60βsβ¦ we reveled in our quest for β truth β and it evolved into a subtle arrogance, which led to complacency. Baptism became the central tenant of the faith; an intellectual exercise based on scripture; hear, believe, repent, confess, be baptized and your set; be handed a Bible, start attending church and you βre on your way.
Discipleship or sanctification was hardly mentioned.
Baby Boomers continued what they had been raised in, brought their Gen X kids up in it during the 70βs and 80βs and sent to Christian Schools and off to ACU.
But then it all changed; culture changed, institutions like ACU changed, and those kids left the C of C in droves and to this day thousands of those kids either lost their faith or fled for greener pastures of authenticity, relevance, grace and The Holy Spirt; things not embraced or understood, rarely mentioned or taught, deemed controversial or decisive. They wanted more.
And, many who came out of ACU became extremely liberal and scoffed at traditional conservative values.
I digress⦠but what has always struck me funny was the claim of not being a denomination. Yet, the C of C maintained the pattern of denominations with most of the institutional trappings!
Buildings, steeples, stages, pulpits, paid staff, Sunday school, budgets, building programs, the structured order of worship, pulpit minister etc et al ; sure it was autonomous and installed Elders, but in reality, elders became a Board of Directors in charge of the business of the church, and true shepherding took a back seat.
So, as it evolved, folks became comfortable knowing they were operating in β total truthββ¦ the original β first century Christianity β β¦ fully restored . We had it 100% correct and donβt anyone dare to try and question or change it.
The kids saw through it; it became stale and boring and inauthentic⦠they wanted more, so they left.
And heads stay buried in the sand; yet parents are thrilled that their grown kids are still believers and attend church βsomewhereβ.
Houston, we have a problem.
Sorry for the rambling.
Some valid observations. Sounds like the Israelites, always wanting βmore,β whatever that is. Foreign gods, idols, kings, strange fire. Could be a combination of weak or worldly leadership, personal temptation and weak faith, ever increasing cultural influence; but in the end God is God, the truth is the truth and the church is the church. Look, create, change, challenge, leave all you want, God is unchanging, so is His Word and His will for us. We have no one to blame but ourselves and no solution than to repent and return to our Heavenly Father (see prodigal Son) and our Savior. Sure, βweβ could do better in a lot of areas -no one or no congregation is perfect, but Christians hearts and minds need to change more than changing the building or the worship style or other so called βreligiousβ things. Many have tried the entertainment and emotion- first ways and felt just as empty and are returning. We are accountable to God. Fulfillment is in Christ (Eph. 1:23), why would we look elsewhere? There is a doctrine to follow (John 7:16-18) and mankind didnβt develop it. Sticking with the basic truth of the word and maturity into the stature of Christ (Ephesians 4:13) should be our goal and that includes evangelism, which is happening but maybe not yet to the degree desired. We should return to it. Thanks and blessings to you and all.
Our congregation in south central Oklahoma has about 130ish members, including a Spanish-language ministry. We have a very solid mix of ages, with several young families and lots of babies. I believe we are very well doctrinally sound and balanced. The future looks bright for us here. Hopeful that this is the case more and more for congregations around the country.
Btwβ¦ in our congregation in Madison, Alabamaβ¦ the demographics match up pretty well with your statisticsβ¦ we have a very good mixtureβ¦ ππ½ππ½ππ½
After my 25 yo read your article, he was ragging me pretty goodβ¦ βWhat is wrong with you Gen Xers?! lol πππ
Is there also some possibility that we might be becoming more relevant to the Gen Z and Millennials because of what happened to Charlie Kirk? Lots of people looking to God right now β¦ π€ππ½ππ½ππ½βοΈβοΈβοΈ
Thanks Jack. I believe our basic foundations are correct: 1) Restore New Testament Christianity and 2) Speak where the Bible speaks. I just believe we became convinced that we had "Restored" NT Christianity at some point in past -- therefore, just needed to hold the fort. We need a far fuller, deeper Restoration of the New Testament churches. Thanks for your good work!
I've been following Ryan Burge too, and our numbers definitely stand out in a good way. I've noticed that the non-denominational and free will Baptist groups tend to be statistically the next best in terms of generational balance. I wonder if that has anything to do with doctrinal similarities, especially congregational autonomy and the lack of man-made creeds.
Also, my firsthand experience matches up with yours and that of the readers you mentioned who have contacted you, as well as the stats.
There is always optimism. Godβs word will not return to him void. Small churches count too and there can be growth there. Preach the word in season out of season with all long suffering. One Lord one faith one baptism. Differences expected but not division . Jesus prayed that we be one in him. Complexities of this life? Sure but nothing that canβt be overcome. The simple truth of the one, true gospel still has the potential to sprout and grow in the right soil/hearts. There are still many deceivers and many who might be corrected and converted and many who might repent and be restored-donβt forget about them.
Thank you for your visibility and dedication.
I actually believe a capella is one of our greatest selling points. Every time people witness it, they're completely enamored. Think Carrie Underwood in the Capitol Rotunda at the Inauguration. Or, this recent example - https://x.com/CreedConfession/status/2023216923992105107
It hasn't been a hurdle for the Eastern Orthodox, either.
Sure .. by β good singing ββ¦
But βbad singing β β¦ is not edifyingβ¦ ( to most ) and comes across as a dead church. Plus a song leader can be a huge plus; however, often, the song leader on a mic overpowers the group singing! ( but heβs got to earn his money !π£)
And we are so structured that the songs just END! Usually no Amensβ¦ just an awkward silence β¦ a page number announce and repeat. Thereβs no Segway into the next song β¦ very sterile and cold . Singing to the back of heads, a screen and a song leaderβ¦ someone decided this is how the first century church did it ???
Ephesians 5β¦. Sing and make melody ? β¦ out of context and became doctrineβ¦. Part of the dogma and a salvation issue to so many β¦ what a shame .