I partially agree with much of what you’ve written, BUT (and this a big but), what we’re unfortunately in the US is a form of CN that appears to have gone completely off the rails…where otherwise good people, Christians, decent politicians, religious people etc have been subjected to lies and power plays very scarily similar to what was happening prior to and during WW2 in Nazi Germany, and slowly but surely some of the normal guardrails are being dismantled. Some of the so-called Christian political leaders are anything but, and many of the current policies are not just unchristian, but even anti Christian and even just plain cruel and evil. Instead of Christians touting CN, Christians should focus on the Kingdom of God PERIOD which I believe would bring many things that are happening into a very sharp focus, so that things are seen in the light and not in the clouds.
The kingdom of God being Christ's rule over all things, it has many wings. The home is a wing of it. The church is the primary wing of it. The state is a wing of it.
Everything you are saying makes good sense, but it's as if you're not even aware that the people who are proudly calling themselves Christian Nationalists are abhorrent, running with the likes of Nick Fuentes, and evidencing no fruit of true faith. The ones who are teaching that when God said "disciple all nations" He literally meant we must force Christianity on America. That we should be able to confiscate property from "bad churches." That the Bible allows no role for women except teaching homemaking skills to other women, and that they are not even to talk about the Bible with other women or with a man within earshot lest she be "teaching" him. The group that's aligning with Islam and the far left in its demonization of Jews. You rightly diagnose First Baptist Dallas for their overemphasis on America - I've written about that too - but you miss the far greater threat to God's church that's out there, in the world and on X, oozing its ugliness, increasingly, by the day.
Maybe I'm ignorant, but I don't think I've seen anyone say
- Force Christianity on America
- Take property from bad churches
- Confine women to strictly homemaking
If you can link me clips of recognized CN leaders saying these things, I'd be interested in seeing them.
I also don't see anyone on the Christian right aligning with Islam. Yes, there is a growing opposition to Israel (which I covered here https://jackwilkie.co/p/the-growing-divide-over-israel) but that does not equate to teaming up with Islam.
It equates in principle, if you're agreeing that Jews are evil. And are you not familiar with Joel Webbon, "Right Response Ministries"? He and his buds are on X literally cackling with glee over the idea, "once they take over", of being able to confiscate property from bad churches and give it to their idea of good churches (like their own), and implying the bad churches should be happy not to be imprisoned. Same dude talks about how he does not let his wife read books without his permission. And if you're not aware of the recent dustup over Allie Beth Stuckey commenting in public on how bad porn is for men and women, perhaps you're not aware of the response from these people that she should shut up and make them a pie. I do not know who you think are "recognized CN leaders" but Webbon in surely one of them. I wrote about it here with some links, but I'm not sure how you are not aware of him already... https://shespeakstruth.substack.com/p/pornography-and-the-new-patriarchy
I spend too much time online, am familiar with many of the people discussed here, remember reading the book review of Wolfe's book that is linked below, etc. And I have never heard of Joel Webbon or Right Response Ministries.
I think we exaggerate the importance of all these people who try hard to attract attention online by being outrageous.
Agreed that loud and obnoxious gets a lot of attention. But since you read the review, you might understand my surprise that someone could write about this movement while ignoring the very people that review was worried about.
As with any movement, I'm not going to sign off on everything any one person says says. I certainly like some CNs more than others. Wolfe's book bit off more than it could chew by fleshing out his entire vision, but I agree with his foundations of the idea that align with what I wrote about here.
You can't write about a movement with so many abhorrent supporters, not mention them, and tell people there's really nothing to be repelled about. You're writing about YOUR idea of what CN is, but that isn't what it is to everyone else. Plus, you muddy the waters further since the outside world thinks anyone who's a Christian and likes America is a "Christian Nationalist" and by that they mean Handmaid's Tale. Which is largely, by the way, what people like Webbon and his ill-informed crew are advocating for. Nobody needs to sign on to that label.
Most “normal” Christians read this and say “yes, I agree with this”.
Where the problem comes is when one looks under the surface at what is promoted by CN proponents…the Wilson, Wofe, Webbon, etc branches that leaves the “normal” Christian repulsed.
I've discovered a lot of the stuff the Bible teaches leaves "normal" Christians repulsed so that doesn't move me much. What specifically is "repulsive" about their views?
it’s a false gospel — it equates political power with Christ’s teachings…that’s not what Jesus came to accomplish. Had He done that, the last 2,000 years would have looked different.
Church vs. State…while there is a NEED for more actual (and not ‘cultural’) Christians in power, “theocracy” is a terrible form of government…it rules more out of earthly fear than Godly fear
what would be the preferred denomination? CREC? PCA? SBC?
does “religious freedom” exist? And I’m not talking about Judaism and Islam…I’m talking about different faith traditions with Christianity, like us in the church of Christ?
authoritarianism…S. Wolfe favors a “Christian Prince” who will rule/lead? who determines that? Will it be by a lady in the lake?
inconsistent application of Bible — draws heavily form the Old Testament…which is great, to an extent. It’s there for our learning and there are some things we can follow (i.e., ethics, morality, application of wisdom literature…Ecc. 12:13)
It’s inconsistent with the New Testament
Christianity didn’t spread through political power
did I mention the Calvinistic undertones?
Selfishly, my biggest issue is I cannot grow a beard. I’m down with a good cigar, tho.
Again, your article is fine and gets an “amen” from me…but as I’ve listed here and one or two others have shared in response, there’s more to “Christian Nationalism” than what you’ve written…and reading your FB/Twitter posts for several years before you blocked me on those platforms (boooooo! ha!), you’re well read.
Check out some of the critiques…maybe they’re legit, maybe they’re not?
"Argued only on its own merits, the idea that governments are duty-bound to their own people and not those of all the world is correct.
The idea that governments are expected to be in submission to Christ is also correct.
The idea that Christians would be in favor of such policies and the candidates who hold them, then, is correct as well."
Hm. We "...are not of this world...: We are to respect government (not so sure about striving to become part of it)... Respecting the government, wherever you are, does not mean mindless accepting/following the leader.
I grew up in Post WWII in Europe and have seen the damage that kind of following brings. One of the more famous theologians, Bonhoeffer, died in the camps because of his open disagreement with political actions.
From what I read in Scripture, our job is to realize our part of God's Kingdom, and spend our energies in that realm, rather than the worldly governments under which we live. Should we want to become involved in worldly politics, we MUST do so from a Biblical perspective!
Supporting a leader whose "Christianity" is shown time and again as but a veneer to draw supporters does not fit that biblical model. Making excuses for such a leader (be it in the US or wherever readers may live) is removing us from following the Biblical perspective - and asks valid questions about OUR priorities.
Unfortunately, although I’m trying not to call out things that I think should be obvious, CN is trying to align and compromise the Christian and the Kingdom of God with the competing values of the world…remember that Christians have been called out of the world, and as Jesus stressed several times in His prayer of John 17, especially verses 8 and following, that although they are “in the world”, they are not, “of the world” - a subtle but very real difference. The “kingdoms of the world” which include the US are all under the deceptions of Satan even though at times and in ways they do right things under the leadership of multiple fallible humans who can be at odds with other fallible leaders both internally and externally. Only the Kingdom of God has its headquarters and citizenship in heaven and Christians are said to be just passing through as sojourners, strangers, foreigners…when Christians really recognize and think this way, it will also be recognized that the world with its ways and CN are really going a very different direction than those who are “not of this world”, but fully following Jesus alone with eyes on “things above and not on earthly things” -Colossians 3:1-3
Thanks for reposting. I think it was well stated and well needed.
I partially agree with much of what you’ve written, BUT (and this a big but), what we’re unfortunately in the US is a form of CN that appears to have gone completely off the rails…where otherwise good people, Christians, decent politicians, religious people etc have been subjected to lies and power plays very scarily similar to what was happening prior to and during WW2 in Nazi Germany, and slowly but surely some of the normal guardrails are being dismantled. Some of the so-called Christian political leaders are anything but, and many of the current policies are not just unchristian, but even anti Christian and even just plain cruel and evil. Instead of Christians touting CN, Christians should focus on the Kingdom of God PERIOD which I believe would bring many things that are happening into a very sharp focus, so that things are seen in the light and not in the clouds.
I guess I don't see the Nazi parallels. What kind of signs are you seeing?
And, what if rather than choosing one thing to focus on, we assert that Christian Nationalism is the political wing of the kingdom of God?
By this, do you mean that the kingdom of God should have a political wing?
The kingdom of God being Christ's rule over all things, it has many wings. The home is a wing of it. The church is the primary wing of it. The state is a wing of it.
Everything you are saying makes good sense, but it's as if you're not even aware that the people who are proudly calling themselves Christian Nationalists are abhorrent, running with the likes of Nick Fuentes, and evidencing no fruit of true faith. The ones who are teaching that when God said "disciple all nations" He literally meant we must force Christianity on America. That we should be able to confiscate property from "bad churches." That the Bible allows no role for women except teaching homemaking skills to other women, and that they are not even to talk about the Bible with other women or with a man within earshot lest she be "teaching" him. The group that's aligning with Islam and the far left in its demonization of Jews. You rightly diagnose First Baptist Dallas for their overemphasis on America - I've written about that too - but you miss the far greater threat to God's church that's out there, in the world and on X, oozing its ugliness, increasingly, by the day.
Maybe I'm ignorant, but I don't think I've seen anyone say
- Force Christianity on America
- Take property from bad churches
- Confine women to strictly homemaking
If you can link me clips of recognized CN leaders saying these things, I'd be interested in seeing them.
I also don't see anyone on the Christian right aligning with Islam. Yes, there is a growing opposition to Israel (which I covered here https://jackwilkie.co/p/the-growing-divide-over-israel) but that does not equate to teaming up with Islam.
It equates in principle, if you're agreeing that Jews are evil. And are you not familiar with Joel Webbon, "Right Response Ministries"? He and his buds are on X literally cackling with glee over the idea, "once they take over", of being able to confiscate property from bad churches and give it to their idea of good churches (like their own), and implying the bad churches should be happy not to be imprisoned. Same dude talks about how he does not let his wife read books without his permission. And if you're not aware of the recent dustup over Allie Beth Stuckey commenting in public on how bad porn is for men and women, perhaps you're not aware of the response from these people that she should shut up and make them a pie. I do not know who you think are "recognized CN leaders" but Webbon in surely one of them. I wrote about it here with some links, but I'm not sure how you are not aware of him already... https://shespeakstruth.substack.com/p/pornography-and-the-new-patriarchy
I spend too much time online, am familiar with many of the people discussed here, remember reading the book review of Wolfe's book that is linked below, etc. And I have never heard of Joel Webbon or Right Response Ministries.
I think we exaggerate the importance of all these people who try hard to attract attention online by being outrageous.
Agreed that loud and obnoxious gets a lot of attention. But since you read the review, you might understand my surprise that someone could write about this movement while ignoring the very people that review was worried about.
As with any movement, I'm not going to sign off on everything any one person says says. I certainly like some CNs more than others. Wolfe's book bit off more than it could chew by fleshing out his entire vision, but I agree with his foundations of the idea that align with what I wrote about here.
You can't write about a movement with so many abhorrent supporters, not mention them, and tell people there's really nothing to be repelled about. You're writing about YOUR idea of what CN is, but that isn't what it is to everyone else. Plus, you muddy the waters further since the outside world thinks anyone who's a Christian and likes America is a "Christian Nationalist" and by that they mean Handmaid's Tale. Which is largely, by the way, what people like Webbon and his ill-informed crew are advocating for. Nobody needs to sign on to that label.
also, here: https://shespeakstruth.substack.com/p/the-tragedy-of-bible-illiteracy
also - I'm surprised you're not aware of this book, which lays it out rather clearly - good review: https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/reviews/christian-nationalism-wolfe/
Most “normal” Christians read this and say “yes, I agree with this”.
Where the problem comes is when one looks under the surface at what is promoted by CN proponents…the Wilson, Wofe, Webbon, etc branches that leaves the “normal” Christian repulsed.
Which way do you personally want to see this go?
I've discovered a lot of the stuff the Bible teaches leaves "normal" Christians repulsed so that doesn't move me much. What specifically is "repulsive" about their views?
The Calvinistic undertones for starters…
Beyond that:
it’s a false gospel — it equates political power with Christ’s teachings…that’s not what Jesus came to accomplish. Had He done that, the last 2,000 years would have looked different.
Church vs. State…while there is a NEED for more actual (and not ‘cultural’) Christians in power, “theocracy” is a terrible form of government…it rules more out of earthly fear than Godly fear
what would be the preferred denomination? CREC? PCA? SBC?
does “religious freedom” exist? And I’m not talking about Judaism and Islam…I’m talking about different faith traditions with Christianity, like us in the church of Christ?
authoritarianism…S. Wolfe favors a “Christian Prince” who will rule/lead? who determines that? Will it be by a lady in the lake?
inconsistent application of Bible — draws heavily form the Old Testament…which is great, to an extent. It’s there for our learning and there are some things we can follow (i.e., ethics, morality, application of wisdom literature…Ecc. 12:13)
It’s inconsistent with the New Testament
Christianity didn’t spread through political power
did I mention the Calvinistic undertones?
Selfishly, my biggest issue is I cannot grow a beard. I’m down with a good cigar, tho.
Again, your article is fine and gets an “amen” from me…but as I’ve listed here and one or two others have shared in response, there’s more to “Christian Nationalism” than what you’ve written…and reading your FB/Twitter posts for several years before you blocked me on those platforms (boooooo! ha!), you’re well read.
Check out some of the critiques…maybe they’re legit, maybe they’re not?
"Argued only on its own merits, the idea that governments are duty-bound to their own people and not those of all the world is correct.
The idea that governments are expected to be in submission to Christ is also correct.
The idea that Christians would be in favor of such policies and the candidates who hold them, then, is correct as well."
Hm. We "...are not of this world...: We are to respect government (not so sure about striving to become part of it)... Respecting the government, wherever you are, does not mean mindless accepting/following the leader.
I grew up in Post WWII in Europe and have seen the damage that kind of following brings. One of the more famous theologians, Bonhoeffer, died in the camps because of his open disagreement with political actions.
From what I read in Scripture, our job is to realize our part of God's Kingdom, and spend our energies in that realm, rather than the worldly governments under which we live. Should we want to become involved in worldly politics, we MUST do so from a Biblical perspective!
Supporting a leader whose "Christianity" is shown time and again as but a veneer to draw supporters does not fit that biblical model. Making excuses for such a leader (be it in the US or wherever readers may live) is removing us from following the Biblical perspective - and asks valid questions about OUR priorities.
Unfortunately, although I’m trying not to call out things that I think should be obvious, CN is trying to align and compromise the Christian and the Kingdom of God with the competing values of the world…remember that Christians have been called out of the world, and as Jesus stressed several times in His prayer of John 17, especially verses 8 and following, that although they are “in the world”, they are not, “of the world” - a subtle but very real difference. The “kingdoms of the world” which include the US are all under the deceptions of Satan even though at times and in ways they do right things under the leadership of multiple fallible humans who can be at odds with other fallible leaders both internally and externally. Only the Kingdom of God has its headquarters and citizenship in heaven and Christians are said to be just passing through as sojourners, strangers, foreigners…when Christians really recognize and think this way, it will also be recognized that the world with its ways and CN are really going a very different direction than those who are “not of this world”, but fully following Jesus alone with eyes on “things above and not on earthly things” -Colossians 3:1-3
What does it mean to you when Jesus is named King of kings?